Indeed, I'm not sure what Swift's concurrency story is yet. Other than that it's encouragingly similar to Rust (we're evolving in the right direction!), but not quite as low-level.
Swift could very well render Rust almost totally irrelevant within the OS X and iOS sphere of software development. If we end up eventually seeing Swift implemented for other platforms, then the chances of Rust's long-term success diminish even more.
Things might have been different had a stable, even if somewhat imperfect, initial version of Rust had been released by now, thus allowing it to gain some adoption and traction.
I hope that the "But Rust isn't targeting those developers!" argument isn't used to try to justify this mistake, as well. Rust is already facing stiff competition from languages like Go, C++11, C++14, Scala and even Java 8.
With the announcement of Swift, Rust's niche and audience are getting smaller, further preventing the widespread adoption that's necessary for a programming language to become truly successful.
We're not scared in the slightest. I'll reconsider when Swift has inline ASM, allocators, linear types, move semantics by default, region analysis, and a type system that guarantees freedom from data races (oh, and when the code is open-sourced, and targets both Linux and Windows as a first-class citizen).
Swift isn't intended to be a systems language: it's an application language. Anyone who's capable of choosing Swift as of today was just as capable of choosing Objective-C yesterday. And as the Rust developers themselves have discovered over the past two years, deciding to become a systems language doesn't happen overnight.
(In fact, on a personal note, I'm ecstatic that Swift has been announced. ADTs! Optional types! Pattern matching! Think of how many features are no longer alien to people who want to learn Rust! And hell, the syntax is incredibly similar as well, which further reduces friction. As a hardcore Rust contributor, I want to shake the hand of each and every one of Swift's designers.)
That said, Swift's types are a bit less than recursive, so there's a bit of niggling still before you get to the affordances of something like Haskell's `data`.
Also, even in systems, I can think of about once a decade I even need to write assembly, so... maybe grasping at straws a bit?
That said, I think inline assembler is an important feature:
> It's interesting that inline assembly is your first bullet point, since there's nothing I can think of that ruins a code file more than inline assembly in a host language. Put that crap in a .S file and link it in like everything else, for crying out loud.
That's too slow. You need to give the optimizer more information than that, and the overhead of the procedure call can be significant.
> The one time you need inline assembly is when you don't want to build a function frame, such as a tight loop, but come on.
But that's a very important use case.
> Also, even in systems, I can think of about once a decade I even need to write assembly, so... maybe grasping at straws a bit?
It's all over the place in the Linux kernel.
For Rust. I didn't make the comparison to Rust, I merely was intrigued by the choice of features and in which order to defend the comparison made by someone else. I see Rust and Swift as targeting entirely different things, at least at first (which means that Swift can certainly evolve inline assembly if it is so needed), and any comparison at this stage is pointless.
> It's all over the place in the Linux kernel.
Cool, that's one piece of software. I'll save you the next few: drivers and a couple files in a game engine. You're disputing my point how, exactly?
This is hilarious. Like anyone would ever use inline assembly in a tight loop.
That said, judging by your other comments, you seem to be of the impression that the Rust team has some sort of vendetta against Go, and have concocted a vendetta in kind. Again, I must sadly disappoint you, but I strive to encourage a culture of respect in all the forums that I visit (and moderate).
The last sentence of the comment to which you hint is my thesis. There is no subtext. It's easy to perceive negative opinions as attacks and create an adversary from the person writing the opinion, but it's also a little bit disingenuous. It also, conveniently, creates a platform upon which nobody can disagree with you lest they be hostile and aggressive. You can then exit on the "high ground," as you've done here.
I meant no ill will. Best of luck, I guess.
Perhaps this is news to you, but those of us who work on and are responsible for large-scale software systems tend to take such factors very seriously.
This may sound harsh, but it really doesn't matter what features and benefits Rust could potentially bring to the table if the lack of stability makes it unusable in practice today. A programming language that can't be seriously used might as well not even exist.
I don't doubt that Apple will have Swift available in a seriously usable form by this fall, and it's very likely that it will see rapid adoption soon after. I'm afraid I can't say the same about Rust and its supposed by-the-end-of-2014 1.0 release, given its current lack of stability and the rapidly-approaching end of the year.
1. Release fast and iterate
2. Release fast and be stuck with mistakes
3. Release slow
Swift appears to be taking option #2 (Apple doesn't commonly break APIs, do they?), but we can't even really be sure because it hasn't been developed in the open the way that Rust has. It's possible that it's been in development as long as Rust, and we simply haven't heard about it yet. Either way, option #2 is a perfectly reasonable one to go with; it has served Java quite well (for a loose definition of fast), though it has required some creative approaches to language improvements.
Rust is taking option #3. C has been around for over 40 years now. If Rust hopes to supplant it, it seems reasonable to take a few extra months (or even an extra year) to put out a solid version 1 that won't hamstring the language or force a breaking change down the line.
This is actually nice, because knowing about languages years before they are production ready probably just slows developer adoption because nobody is quite sure when they should trust there development process to a new language.
You also didn't realize that you just built the biggest strawman ever in the above sentence.
Enough with the "I want a stable Rust now". Rust, like any other language, takes years to stabilize. You just happen to see it happen in the open, whereas most other languages you get them at their 1.0 release.
>This may sound harsh, but it really doesn't matter what features and benefits Rust could potentially bring to the table if the lack of stability makes it unusable in practice today. A programming language that can't be seriously used might as well not even exist.
They could not give a flying duck about it being "seriously used today".
They'll start to care AFTER they release it as 1.0. They only released this 0.x versions to solicit ideas and improvements, not to get programmer's to adopt it.
Assuming this stabilization actually does happen, whether it happens in public or private is irrelevant.
What matters is that we've seen C++ stabilize. We've seen Go stabilize. We've seen Scala stabilize. And now we'll likely see Swift stabilize, well before Rust does. They are all serious competitors to Rust.
As these other languages continue to evolve, but at the same time remaining usable, the relevance of Rust will continually decrease. It may still have drawing power today. A few years from now, it will have less appeal.
If you like it, perhaps you should be a little patient and give the creators the benefit of the doubt. No one wants a Rust 3.0 fiasco.
It's hard to encounter language issues without implementing a large project in the language. I am happy that they're taking the time to let the implementation of Servo help inform the design of Rust.
It's hard to make a comparison against Swift, which is a proprietary language developed for years behind closed doors. Presumably they're at 1.0 from the first day by design. You can't do that with open source languages.
It's pretty absurd to expect Rust to be stable right from the get go. The difference in all this is that most of those languages were closed before being released. Rust was open at a pretty early state.
Personally, I consider the 0.1 release in January 2012 to mark Rust's "birthday". Everything prior to that was just gestation. :)
FWIW, Swift is categorized as a systems language in the opening pages. But, then, so does Go in its FAQ. To Swift's credit, at least it has deterministic memory management through ARC.
In general, reference counting has the problem that it needs to update the reference count. If you have a read-only data-structure these updates to the references will introduce writes that may severely impact performance since a write introduces cache consistency communication, while reads are communication-free.
It may not be ready as a systems language in its pre-1.0 form, but the Swift book claims that it's "designed to scale gracefully from ‘Hello World’ to an entire operating system", so Apple appears to have big goals.
Given Rust's PR, speaking of that -- not a thread about Go passes without at least three pcwalton comments these days -- I actually broke down and gave it a try. I wrote a little Hello World server and then got lambasted by a friend of mine for not working functionally, since, in his words, "Rust is a functional language and the fact that it supports other paradigms is a mistake." I rm -rf'd and ignore it for now, but I look forward to it stabilizing and maybe coming back to it.
Rust has potential but the PR needs to ease up just a little. There is room for more than one language in the world.
(small-time rust contributor here too)
Well, every thread about Go inevitably has numerous comments comparing it to Rust, often erroneously, and pcwalton is one of the primary Rust developers.
But as an industry, we need practical solutions that are available now, even if somewhat flawed. We need languages we can use today, and know that the code we write today will still compile fine next week and next year, if not a decade or more from now.
Modern C++ is getting pretty good at offering this, while offering far a greater degree of safety. Go isn't bad, either. Scala has its drawbacks, but it's often a reasonable option, too. The key thing to remember is that all of these languages have offered developers a stable target, and they are seriously usable in the present.
Given the announcement of Swift, and given that Apple will very likely deliver on it by the fall, we very well could see it becoming a major player during 2015.
The safety benefits that Rust could theoretically or potentially offer are virtually useless to huge swaths of the industry as long as the predictability of a stable release just isn't there. The longer this wait goes on, the better the competition becomes, and the less relevant Rust will unfortunately become in the long term.
By this logic we shouldn't invent any new programming languages at all. There's no such thing as a "practical solution that's available now"; everything takes time to develop.
> Modern C++ is getting pretty good at offering this, while offering far a greater degree of safety. Go isn't bad, either. Scala has its drawbacks, but it's often a reasonable option, too. The key thing to remember is that all of these languages have offered developers a stable target, and they are seriously usable in the present.
You aren't going to use those languages if you want memory safety without garbage collection. Because they can't offer zero-overhead memory safety without breaking existing code.
In other words, Rust is about safety with zero overhead over C++, and Swift is not zero-overhead. So the people who need Rust are not going to use Swift for Rust's domains. That's fine, as Apple wanted a language for iOS and Mac app development with tight integration with Objective-C, and from what I've seen they've done a great job of developing one.
> Things might have been different had a stable, even if somewhat imperfect, initial version of Rust had been released by now, thus allowing it to gain some adoption and traction.
Why are you so insistent that we freeze an unsafe version of a language that's designed for safety?
Pacabel has made a career of complaining about Rust being unstable.
I think that the recent, and very disruptive, ~ and box changes should completely dispel that notion.
I'm merely pointing out the reality of the current situation, which some in the Rust community do not wish to acknowledge, for whatever reason. The situation has yet to change, so what I'm saying is still valid, and will remain so until some actual improvement does take place.
Now that we see yet another serious competitor in the form of Swift, what I've had to unfortunately be saying for some time now becomes more and more relevant. If Rust is to become relevant, it will need to be usable, and that will need to happen very quickly.
No, he didn't say that anywhere.
To be crystal clear: no-one is suggesting that Rust is stable and no-one is suggesting it is ready for adoption (if they are, they are wrong). However, being unstable now is very very different to not ever being stable.
In any case, Swift is only tangentially a Rust competitor as kibwen demonstrated.
Rust is not stable, as you yourself have readily admitted. What I've unfortunately had to be pointing out for such a long time now is absolutely correct.
We've been told that we can expect Rust 1.0 by the end of the year. As each month passes, it becomes less and less likely that we will actually see this. We are still seeing significant change, even as recently as the past month.
I think Rust could potentially be very useful. But that requires stability, and that in turn is something that appears more and more elusive each day.
It's easy to say that Swift isn't a competitor to Rust, but the reality is that it is. And unlike Rust, it will very, very likely be usable for serious apps within a few months. It will see the adoption that Rust could have had, had it been usable, further reducing Rust's future changes.
All of those are highly uncontroversial and universally acknowledged by experienced Rust users.
Also, I don't understand how you have lept from Rust being unstable now, to Rust never being stable.
A 1.0 release by the end of the year doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me; I think you are expecting more from it than what the Rust team is looking for (and have stated publicly repeatedly): stabilising the core language.
Of course, a stable release of that form will still mean some libraries may be unstable (and so that Rust would be unsuitable for many corporate developments). These libraries will be stabilised progressively and iteratively.
No, he merely suggests that you bored a lot of people by repeating that it's unstable, instead of accepting the fact and using something else.
If being unstable is that bad, then by all means, go and use a stable language.
There are numerous alternatives to Rust that offer many of its benefits, but they're usable today. We can rely on them today, tomorrow, and likely for some time to come.
And by this fall, we'll likely have Swift as yet another option to add to our growing list.
I think Rust has a lot of potential. But each month that goes by squanders that potential. It has less and less of a chance of making a real impact the longer it isn't usable, especially while its competitors keep evolving.
Yeah, and I listen to Rihanna instead of Jay Farrar. Obviously that's the big problem Jay is facing, and he should sound more like Rihanna to cater to my taste.
The recent, and rather disruptive, box changes are a good example of this. We see change, and those of us with existing Rust code sure do feel the change, but very little convergence seems to be happening.
Based on past trends, I would not be at all surprised if problems are found with the new approach as it becomes more widely used, and some other approach is then attempted.
Wheel-spinning is something that can quite easily happen with ambitious software projects. It's not a new phenomenon. But when facing ever-increasing competition, and other real-world constraints, it's often better to aim slightly lower and at least be mostly usable in practice.
A memory-safe programming language that can't actually be used is pretty much irrelevant. It's better to accept some slight amount of imperfection if that means it can actually be used.
I believe it is, as the basic structure and rules of the borrow check (which is the part of Rust that's truly unique) have proven themselves to be quite usable. The usability problems remaining are implementation and precision (e.g. issue #6393), not big problems that will require large redesigns.
> The recent, and rather disruptive, box changes are a good example of this. We see change, and those of us with existing Rust code sure do feel the change, but very little convergence seems to be happening.
Yes, it is. The number of outstanding backwards incompatible language changes is decreasing. People who do Rust upgrades notice how the language is changing less and less.
> A memory-safe programming language that can't actually be used is pretty much irrelevant. It's better to accept some slight amount of imperfection if that means it can actually be used.
"Some slight amount of imperfection" means not memory-safe. Java didn't settle for that, C# didn't settle for that, Swift isn't settling for that, and we aren't settling for it.
At the end of the day, if Rust fails, well that will be a shame. But I'm seeing nothing that shows that it might, so I'm truly struggling to understand why you seem so upset by a new modern language trying to tackle big problems in ways that have never been done before. That's a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.
I bring this up again and again because I'd rather not see Rust fail. I'd much rather see a slightly flawed Rust that's actually usable in the short term, rather than a continually changing Rust that nobody will seriously adopt.
Rust has been in development for years now. That's a very long time in the software industry. A few years of development time without a stable release is understandable. But it's getting beyond that now.
Rust isn't quite there yet, but each day it edges closer to a Perl 6 type of disaster. Perl 6 offered some intriguing ideas, but it just isn't usable, and that's a shame. Meanwhile, other competitors have arisen and blown past it, rendering it far less useful were it ever properly implemented.
Given the increasingly stiff competition that Rust is facing, I suspect we'll see it end up like Haskell or D. Something usable is eventually produced, but it never sees the truly widespread adoption that it could have seen, had it been usable earlier on. It's not as bad as Perl 6's situation, but it is still unfortunate.
I don't have much to say about D, but the history of Haskell implied by this sentence is hilariously wrong.
Go watch Simon Peyton Jones' talk about the history of Haskell: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers.... As well as being wonderfully entertaining, it explains the actual history of Haskell: it was designed to be a language with which various academic groups could do functional programming language research. The fact that Haskell has gradually grown more popular and now has mainstream appeal and some industrial users is quite a surprise to its creators.
Not for programming languages. These take years and years. Take a stab at any of the most popular languages. They weren't created 1-3 years ago. It takes time, and that's a good thing.