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Comment by pg | Hacker News Reader

Yeah, seemed this way to me too. Except I don't agree about VB:

(a) In the heyday of DOS, people used all sorts of languages. Some of the first DOS programs I wrote were in Prolog.

(b) If the best hackers don't want to build stuff on your platform, you're in big trouble. Hard as it seems to imagine now, DOS was impressive in the mid 80s, and smart people wrote apps for it.

I don't think Google is deliberately courting mediocre hackers by using Java. It was probably just the expedient choice for some reason.

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"I don't think Google is deliberately courting mediocre hackers by using Java. It was probably just the expedient choice for some reason."

They're choosing the Java Virtual Machine, not Java itself. Java just happens to the be standard example of a language which targets the JVM. Using the JVM is a prudent choice since many tools already exist which target this platform, it's sandboxed, and it's hardware platform-independent. You already have implementations of many languages targeting the JVM including Java, Python, and Ruby.

In fact, the JVM bytecodes are then recompiled to their special VM's object format, called Dalvit. Using the JVM as the common layer allows them to fit into the existing software ecosystem without causing pain for developers and language implementors.

The jvm is just bad at accommodating dynamic languages though, unfortunately. Similar was the fate of parrot. At the moment this idea is more of an academic dream.

Why's that? Sure, you have to ship some more support code (parts of the language runtime) as part of the compiled bytecode, but that just increases the size of the bytecode somewhat. It's not a fatal problem at all.

Parrot always seemed like an odd idea to me, but I just assumed that there must be enough to be gained by doing such a high level VM if people were bothering to write it.

No, it's not about size. Of course not.

I was referring to performance and ease of adapting the JVM's way of doing things internally to very different languages. This is quoting a number of parrot and jython developers. I have the links around here somewhere..

Why do you think jython et all are so terribly far behind? It's not for shortage of interest, more because the likely possible outcome of this could only be sub-par.

Google is employing a small army of Java developers -- are they mediocre? :)

I think Google picked Java because J2ME has already won a big midshare among mobile developers and Google wanted to appeal to them by providing a familiar tool.

Well, there's certainly a large installed base of JVMs on mobile devices. I've only done a bit of J2ME programming for cell phones, but my experience was that the platform felt much more constraining than the language. Java, shmava... It may feel clunky, but it's good enough - for now - in the mobile space.

They're using Java because of its sandbox, IMO, and because it's a widely used language.

When would you say the best hackers stopped building stuff on Microsoft platforms?

When they all started writing for the web.

Not sure exactly when that was, though, day and date.

I think the best hackers are still writing systems software and algorithmic software. Web development doesn't really appeal to them from what I can see. This at least applies to the awesome hackers I personally know.

Right, but aren't they doing it for Linux or Mac?

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