Bye Bye Linux (Ubuntu), Hi Again Windows | Hacker News Reader

Bye Bye Linux (Ubuntu), Hi Again Windows

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11 pointsamrith35 comments

Good stuff, but there is something a lot of people don't consider (and the author didn't here either). Most "benchmarks" people use to judge Linux are based on experience with Windows, yet almost no one ever judges Windows based on Linux. Linux makes much more of an effort to meet Windows benchmarks than vice versa.

Linux is (mostly) secure by design. How does Windows stack up?

Linux has a powerful command line interface which can do almost anything that can physically be done on a Linux system.

Linux comes equipped with programming support (I think a C compiler should be considered a standard part of ANY system).

Linux (generally) has resizable dialog boxes. The Windows environment variables dialog box is downright evil.

Linux allows for a great deal more system and desktop customization.

If you get used to running Linux, you can pretty much dual-boot or straight up change your OS on a whim (especially given the available of Gnome and KDE). Also, you have something to change to. If you decide you get sick of Windows, it's a much bigger deal to change OS. Windows to Linux is nothing like Ubuntu to Arch.

Installing and running a development/test web server on a Linux machine is almost trivial.

I would say in general where Linux excels, it excels far more than Windows does where Windows excels. Windows may be a little better in some areas, but where Linux is better, it's so many lightyears ahead that Windows isn't even in view anymore (think virus protection for example).

The command line really is hard to make up for, without a lot of hassle, that is. When I'm running windows it's the thing I miss the most.

Other than that, it sucks that Firefox is not nearly as polished under Linux as it is under Windows. Same goes for adobe's flash player.

cygwin and putty help with making windows bearable again, and the new kernel patches and video driver updates make flash pretty darn good

Have you tried Powershell? I haven't found much I can't do with it (though I admittedly have limited Linux experience)

Powershell's single, deal-breaking problem is that there is no integration with the rich Unix CLI environment, which means that it can hardly be used as the superglue that bash and zsh can be used for. Which means that it's basically a shell language on steroids, for which I'd much rather recommend and interactive Ruby or Python shell. Powershell's problem is that it exists in an ecosystem that does not acknowledge the CLI, and it will not be useful until that situation is reversed. Since, to this day, mos windows apps don't have backends for CLI interaction, I doubt thethings will change for several years.

First off, I generally agree with what you're saying. I think the reason that most people look at Linux and compare it to Windows is because most people start on Windows, so it's what they're used to.

I live on Linux for the most part, so I've gotten used to things, but there are still some things that need some work, especially when it comes to laptops: namely, dealing with resolution issues, external screens, and power management. Most of these things can be dealt with if you're comfortable in Linux, but this stuff is REALLY easy to do on Windows (most likely because the driver support is better there, and will continue to be as long as Windows is the dominant user platform).

Anyway, I think Ubuntu has come a long way, and I'm perfectly happy running it as my main OS, but I can see what the author is saying here.

My big beef with Linux is CD burning programs. All of them in my experience are buggy crash fests.

I certainly have no problem criticizing Linux. I think the point I was really trying to make is that the Linux/Windows issue should not be viewed as a contest from which a winner will emerge but, like almost everything else hackers deal with, as a trade-off.

I can't imagine trying to do web development on a Windows machine after discovering just how painless everything is on Linux. Cygwin/Putty/msysgit/etc. just doesn't cut it when you're used to the stuff just working.

This is a nice article. He makes some good points. I'm generally leaning Linux-ward these days, but I really appreciate what he says about laptops.

A few notes:

- On the initial installation, CD + 20 minutes for Linux, CD + 2 hrs for Windows, sounds about right to me. But another point to make is that on Ubuntu, another 20 minutes, maybe an hour at most, gets me a fully loaded system, while on Windows I'm swapping CDs for days. Of course, I don't have to do that Cisco VPN stuff he complains about.

- An issue that he doesn't touch on at all is the general "scriptability" of the system. I've found that under Linux, it is usually much easier to write a little script to automate some task, than it is under Windows. Of course, this matters not at all to some people.

- Laptops, external displays, etc.: Definitely. If I were running the Ubuntu project, I'd put everything else on essential-maintenance-only status, and get it working right on a laptop as soon as possible.

Unfortunately one of your problems is reliance on Microsoft Products and specific hardware even when you were switched to Linux, such as Office/Outlook and products such as the Dell Docking Station and Multi Function Printers who doesn't support any *nix, and Cisco VPN (look in to vpnc). That's like comparing using Windows and trying to get KOffice and Cygwin working on Windows and benchmarking so.

You pick a platform, and start using the tools associated natively with it.

Linux isn't a good suite for everyone, and definitely not in this case.

Yeah, the VPN paragraph had me laughing. Surely one of those 14 blogs should've mentioned "sudo apt-get install network-manager-vpnc". VPN is a breeze on Ubuntu.

Yes, I saw that but it doesn’t work too well if you can’t use Network Manager to begin with.

See bug 55434 that I reported in december about this.

https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/55434

I had to switch to WiCD which did allow me to do WiFi at work.

Now, it may be possible that I could use network-manager-vpnc with WiCD but I couldn’t find a way to do that.

Ok, that's legitimate. But it sounds like your complaint is really with network manager, not Ubuntu's VPN support. And hey, at least you have a place to report bugs :)

There, my friend, you have a point!

Yes, my grouse is with Network Manager but that is really a distinction without a difference. I have a problem with Ubuntu by extension.

> Linux isn't a good suite for everyone

I believe this was his point, that Linux is not ready for mainstream use.

"Not good for everyone" doesn't mean "Not ready for mainstream use". Windows is not good for me but it's apparently mainstream.

Actually the external screen stuff worked quite well since one or two releases ago. At least for me. They added nice controls for it.

Printer - oh well, just have to buy the right one, I guess.

Docking station: very exotic use case.

> Docking station: very exotic use case.

It's only exotic to Linux users.

With modern notebooks I have never seen the benefit. What does the docking station add?

I have an Acer Aspire One with Jaunty on it. When I want an external monitor, I plug in a monitor; when I want an external keyboard, I plug in a keyboard; and so on. The only benefit I can see to a docking station would be that you only have to plug in one thing instead of, like, three things.

Incidentally, the only problem I have had setting up and running Ubuntu on the netbook was that the default wifi driver is a bit flaky. I switched to madwifi-hal and did a bit of set-up as per:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne#line-207

Now it works fine.

Really?

The way my desk area is set up is I guess a vastly different use case from yours. My laptop is primarily mobile -- I take it to work, work from coffee shops, the couch, etc., but when I want to do something that I need need more of a desktop setting for (I can't do image editing on the couch, or without a mouse, or without a large screen usually) I just plug the laptop into the docking station.

The docking station is connected to an external hard drive for backups, speakers for sound, external monitor, keyboard, mouse, power cable, Line 6 Pod XT guitar pedal and mixing board.

It allows me the flexibility of having a convenient desktop setup while still maintaining the portability I bought a laptop for. I'm surprised more people don't use it, as it seems like the edge case here instead of the norm.

Most of those problems went away with the arrival of USB hubs. Granted, I still plug more cables than you do (monitor, sometimes audio). But I think for audio a USB solution could be found, too, then I would be down to three cables (monitor, usb hub, power). Sure, docking station is a bit faster, but it is also much uglier (most of the time). I guess it depends on how often you move around with your notebook.

I always work with an external monitor at home, but I use my notebook's keyboard. Atm I also only bother to plug in audio when I need it - I admit audio is a sore point, but when I have time, I'll try to find some wireless solution.

I suppose that's true, but then I'd still have to plug in a USB cable even. I guess I just really like the idea of not having to plug in ANYTHING.

If I'm away from the docking station, I mumble curse words when I have to plug in so much as an ethernet cable.

He is complaining about docking a Dell. Can anyone here confirm that latest Ubuntu works with latest Dell Latitudes and their docking stations?

I just placed an order on one of them and I'm getting nervous. Google searches didn't reveal any potential problems.

My specs:

Latitude E6400,

NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M,

Intel® WiFi Link 5300 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card,

E-Port, dock for charging, digital video, and USB / eSATA port support

Complaints are:

1. Hard to set up printing to complicated printers.

2. Laptop docking station doesn't work.

Yeah, hardware compatibility is indeed a perenial problem with linux distros. The reason is that it's not something the OS vendor can solve. The truth is that Microsoft doesn't make this stuff work, HP and Dell do. They're the ones who get the support calls when stuff fails, so they're the ones with an incentive to make the integration work right. The linux world has no equivalent player (in the consumer space -- there certainly is on servers, where vendors care deeply about linux support).

3. Distros don't update Firefox when new releases come out.

I think this is fair. There are arguments to be made either way, but it's true that a windows user has a much easier time upgrading to new versions of popular software at release time than linux folks do, where you generally need to wait 0-6 months for the new Ubuntu. I think some kind of answer for the user who wants to download someting new Right Now would be a good thing.

4. External monitor support sucks in X.org.

Absolutely true, but it's improving rapidly.

3 I don't get. Ubuntu has both Firefox 3.0 and 3.5 available to choose in a simple list of software. His problem seems to be that he doesn't like the Firefox codename which is hardly the end of the world.

Not really. When I wrote this post, 3.5 was not an available UPGRADE for 3.0. You end up with both 3.0 and 3.5 on your system, and still do.

I have no issue with the name.

The issue with many Linux bigots is that they think the rest of the world is somehow stupid and not as smart as they are, as evidenced by some of the other comments on this trail. They seem to believe that the things that the rest of the world wants (which they see as unimportant) are in fact worthless (like the comment about docking stations).

Just a note for the upcoming October release of Ubuntu: I've been trying the alphas, and in version 2 all my external display woes have gone away. It's as easy as setting up external displays in windows.

I'm a little depressed that external monitor support is still so poor. The last time I tried it was 2 years ago back in college, and it took me weeks of Googling, reconfiguring and reinstalling to get it to just barely work. Seems like it has barely moved since then... what a shame for something so obvious and vital to many laptop users! Reminds me of the xkcd comic. (http://xkcd.com/619)

Could do without the attitude, but would be interested to see the author of the blog try a mac for a bit and compare.

Yeah good luck with the docking station and installing on his computer.

MacBooks have docking stations?

I guess that's a show-stopping problem for this guy, eh?

With the default xorg.conf, usually you just plug in your second monitor and type 'startx -- :1' for your presentations... it is annoything that if I'm working on the train (one screen) and I get to work, I have to start a new X session. I think xrandr solves this issue but it's not ready for me yet.

Its a sad thing that while most of linux kernel code is drivers, its hardware support is still flaky in many places :(

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