Comment by crdoconnor | Hacker News Reader

Comment by crdoconnor | Hacker News Reader

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>As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in their jobs, then you hear them talk about unions and protectionism and regulation and so on.

H1-Bs are the very antithesis of freedom, which is apparently what libertarianism is about (I have my doubts its supposed adherents sometimes).

Giving corporations the near instant legal ability to revoke your immigration status (this is what H1Bs are) reduces you to a state of semi-chattel worker. In turn THAT pressures the wages of other workers down.

It's ENTIRELY consistent with libertarian views to oppose H1-Bs and the companies that push for them if they're pressuring your wages down. It's not an anti-foreigner view. That's not EVEN an anti-immigrant view. It's an anti "letting companies dictate the right of ANYBODY to stay in the country" view.

If tech companies OR you want more skilled tech workers they should lobby for more green cards or shut the fuck up.

Of course, what they really want is more easily controlled tech workers. That is, tech workers they have under their thumb. Tech workers they can say "I need you to work late tonight... unless you'd like to be on a flight back to your home country next week that is."

>I think it's very selfish to oppose H1B visas.

Don't call yourself a libertarian then.

Use the phrase 'anti-freedom corporatist apologist' or something.

You're absolutely right--H1B workers do not have nearly enough rights.

I don't really care for whatever else you have to say. Try speaking to me like a rational adult instead of telling me to "shut the fuck up".

EDIT: I find it incredible that, judging by the downovtes, people seriously think I am obligated to respond to someone who has shown so little respect to me.

Now you are going to rightfully be down voted for insulting the rest of us by complaining about being down voted. Your comment as it stands now, should be down voted.

You aren't new to HN. You know this is wrong. Don't do it.

I've been here long enough to see this argument before, yes.

I feel the same as I do now: that if it looks like people are using the downvote as an "I disagree" or "I don't like you" button, people are entitled to call this out and ask for an explanation. If no good explanation is forthcoming, this suggests the downvoters might be in error.

I don't think he was telling you personally to STFU, but rather making the argument that if you really want immigrants you should argue for green cards, not H1Bs which give the employer too much control. I think you mis-read what he wrote. BTW, I've upvoted you even though we "disagree."

You didn't ask for an explanation. You complained. This is wrong.

"I find it incredible that, judging by the downovtes, people seriously think I am obligated to respond to someone who has shown so little respect to me."

This is not seeking clarification. You didn't even assume people were mistaken. You made a judgement call. You were complaining about down votes. Don't do it.

>H1-Bs are the very antithesis of freedom

Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point. Whether a society, political ideology etc deems those limitations in freedom necessary is a different story. Visas put a wedge in the law to allow someone to work at a business. Global immigration laws prevent people/workers from moving freely to other areas of economic opportunity. By making immigration controls more restrictive (denying visa grants) you leave people with less opportunities and ergo freedom.

Should we create inter-state immigration controls? Should I need to apply to the state of New York to move there? By supporting immigration controls and denying H1-B visas you're in essence saying, yes I should have to apply to the state of New York to move there.

>Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point.

The point of laws is to ideally balance freedom and security. You are not free to rip me off because doing THAT infringes upon my freedom/security.

In the case of H1-Bs there is nothing gained by restricting workers' freedom to switch jobs freely - EXCEPT, that is, by the company employing you.

That is why they're so toxic to everybody else and such a perfect way to keep labor in line for the company.

Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point. Whether a society, political ideology etc deems those limitations in freedom necessary is a different story.

I see what you did there... which is, you jumped from the particular restrictions of the H1-B visa to the generality of "laws". The point the parent ultimately points to is that creating a situation where your visa ends when a particular company says it ends makes you beholden to that company in a fashion which would be different than if, say, you visa ended at a fixed time.

All law may to an extend restrict people's freedom of actions but a law which facilitates indentured servitude would create a situation of greater concrete unfreedom than a law restricting a person from going to some fraction of the globe.

Indentured servitude is a system in which someone who has no present capital writes a contract with someone to exchange future labor for present capital (in an historical context, passage on ships if I recall correctly). If you're issued an H1-Bs you don't have to work at that company. Why on earth would anyone take an H1-B visa if they thought they could get a better job in their home country?

Are you saying that foreigners cannot think for themselves and that a slow, innovation-lacking, bureaucratic government is smarter and knows better than them?

Very true.

The majority of H1B workers I have come across in my own career were paid less than the Americans, or were working in a business that was notorious for being either a bad place to work and/or not one that paid well. Yes there are exceptions, and yes this is anecdotal, but I have yet to see solid data to refute this observation.

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