Attacked By Thugs (2004)
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But yeah, La Linea is an absolute dump, wouldn't be caught living there (the smells, the people, the pollution, horrible!)
edit - The German general Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord was quoted as saying;
"I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent -- their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy -- they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent -- he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief."
These police in this story are definitely in the stupid and diligent section of Kurt's matrix.
[1]: http://simongriffee.com/notebook/police-aggression-coercion-...
about ten minutes later, i get a call from the police to go id the kids about a quarter mile away. about two months later, i got a summons to testify out by ashmont. i didn't really connect "i see something" with "i will say something in court" when i called and it gave me an appreciation for the realities of witness intimidation.
in contrast, someone walked through my office once and lifted a couple ipads and a few wallets. mountain view police came by about half an hour later, took a report, and that's the last i heard of it. some things are easier to deal with and a small robbery like that i'm told is basically a lost cause.
i often found cambridge, somerville and medford police and fire were impressively responsive, even for relatively minor complaints, but i'm sorry you and your friends' experiences have been lackluster.
Urban city: Car accident. No personal injury? Other guy isn't drunk? Just drive away and if your insurance needs a report, visit the cops within the next week or so. They don't respond for robbery / burglary at all although again you can go to the station to make a report if insurance requires. Another incident, someone unsuccessfully tried to break into your car and damaged it, eh, whatever, its your fault for being a victim, you must have done something wrong.
Transitional office park: Car accident. "You will drive yourself to the station immediately and make a report, or we will go out and get you, and I assure you that you do not want us to go get you and bring you in"
Suburb: Minor car accident, neighbor boy learning to drive and wife's friend's car parked in the wrong place at the wrong time. Dispatched a unit, took photographs and wrote report, etc.
There's a big difference in attitude toward crime between urban and suburban living that goes way beyond car ownership or mass transit. Urban areas are downright dangerous and neither the cops nor the other residents care.
These kind of incidents happens to you so much time in your life that I can't empathize. Aggression is stressful, but even being beaten is not the end of the world. It's part of the process of becoming adult at my opinion to know how to face these kind of incidents.
And our special policemen «la BAC» are behaving like bad cops in movie we call them the cowboys. When you see them in the suburbs they cover a surface of 15km in radius. But, when you go in Paris, where people are wealthy you can have 4 cars looking for a block because one gypsiy has been spotted pickpocketing.
The normal cops on the field are worse. They can control you. And even if you are white (and right) when they control you if you are not in suit an tie or looking like a rich kid they will talk to you like a 6 years old kid if they think you look like a criminal.
Most of the time I am white and dressed like a rick kid, so it's rather pretty okay for me. I have 2 friend of mine who are in the police. I know what they face, and I also see the other side of the fence. The worst is it does not seems related to human nature, but much more the result of a cascade of bad political, economical and social decisions that resulted in a clock-like mechanic of systemic violence based on a ghettoisation of violence.
Just to say where I come from we all experienced these «aggression», and I will develop the reason why it is bad to flee and not face the problem.
I avoided not the streets of my town, but the violence (my martial art was running like hell). And then I learnt how to face it more constructively.
I learnt.
By overcoming your fear of the place, you can meet the people: the thugs, the cowboy, the rich kids ....
And you see that whatever you can think, this violence is not directed towards you. It is directed towards the society, and the pain they live in.
Towards discrimination ans poverty. You learn there are bad guys every where (cops, rich kids, thugs) and nice guys too.
But learn for survival to spot two important informations: who has the more power, and who can reach you.
to sum up: R > C > T in terms of power. Rich kids are out of reach of the law, and the thugs because they live in their ghetto, and can call for more cops. You may think it is not violent a rich kid. But in the private school near me the kids of celebrities (such as famous actors) were famous for drug consommation (they had the money), being thieves and all, but the cops were constantly surveying the public school where no one had as much money (coke was expensive).
Cops have more power on you and the thugs because they put you in jail for fallacious reasons. So you learn to not be picky when they troll you and talk to you as if you were a retarded.
You notice that they do it all the more you are black or to tanned.
Except if you have a kipa, that would be antisemitism and that is not well socially tolerated.
Then, they are the thugs, they are a pain in the ass. They are often the dealers and some times thugging the rich kids. But, they never thug the rich kids where they live, because troubles are bad for business.
So I you are close to a place where people deal, you have less crimes that make the people call the police (like prostitution).
It can be seen as cool.
Then you go to work to the capital. There people call you an affabulator or a mythomaniac when you tell your stories, bacause «they live in the same place, and it never happened to them».
And one day at works a rich kid will whine because he was «thugged». An incident level 2 on the Richer scale of what you experienced. And he will call for more security, more repression, and he will eventually blame it on the coloured and tanned.
It is not always true, but mostly we can spot a lot of the «rich kids» are jews, because sepharadim last name are as easy to recognize as the colour of the skin. It creates prejudices. Is it stastically true? I don't care. I you want to understand, you have to accept the other's point of view.
And guess what, because I was learning french boxing I met both people practicing «ratonnade»(when you go in a city to beat the pulp of the arabs) and thugging the rich kids. I liked these people though.
They hate each others because a fraction of the others are violent to them on the sole reason of their difference.
So they have violent discriminating violence that reinforces itself in vicious feedback loop: no one is innocent.
And they all go voting marine le pen hoping she will get rid of the bad guys.
So I decided to take a stand rationally.
I blame it on everyone. I blame it more on the more powerful.
The vicious circle can only be broken by stopping to exert discriminative violence, and stopping to create the social, political reasons of the core violence : poverty AND ghettoisation.
I quite loaded the end of my description so that you have an overview of how the conflict in Israel can spread to other cities in Europa. They spread because we built the same kind of ghettos where poor and tanned are concentrated and other citizens live in another reality protected by the walls of the force of order. The conflict still has not yet comes as far as using tank and rockets. Just stones, kicks vs tasers and gum guns (40mm cartridge with gum balls).
The moral of my story is when you are thugged, learn to pass through the violence so you don't take part in this vicious cicle. So that you don't ignore it, and try to make you understanding of this shitty situation.
If you avoid it, if you avoid the places where over citizens are going you ignore what is happening in your community. And if you call for only more order, you just take part in the building of violence.
Problems are to be face. Problems are to be solved, especially when they induce the violence and the pain in the community.
Maybe my analysis is wrong, but I think I am right to care. I was right not to flee and whine.
PS for the record my city -Pontoise- ranks as one of the calmest city you can see in my banlieue, and the aggression I have faced were no more than 4 on a span of 30 years except if you add the 6 guys always trying to beat me at the end of school for 6 months in a row because I was socially awkward and pedantic, but they never got me, because I was escaping smartly the school every time -but this is just bullying- I don't call that an aggression just an initiatic rite for your acceptance in the empire of nerddom.
BAC = Brigade Anti Criminalité (Anti Crime Unit) But everybody refers to them as the BAC or in slang the «cowboys»
Yeah, but you have to explain that subburbs are not the same in France as in the U.S. Here, subburbs are generally where educated, middle-class people go to live (although that is changing in some places).
In France, the "banlieu" subburbs are what we would call the "inner-city". Speaking colloquially, the ghetto.
Big difference, and just translating "banlieu" as "subburb" does not explain this.
The BAC are the "Brigade anti-criminalité", that term is more obscure. Basically a special unit of the police. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_anti-criminalit%C3%A9
For the SV crowd, Paris = San Francisco, banlieue = Oakland.
I would say the analogous word is "inner-city". "Urban" carries a limited range of socio-cultural connotations, unlike "banlieu" and "inner-city".
I was forced to borrow from the adult library when I was 11 because I had already read everything and I was too demanding. But I guess it was not enough :)
But I don't think hidden social rules are taught in books. Behaving «socially correctly» is not taught either. Which so far has been quite my main problem.
Why is that, I wonder? Most rich kids still don't have enough leverage to mess with a cop, do they? How rich are we talking?
The rich kids don't have to mess with cops. The cops know not to mess with them.
Still doesn't add up to me.
For instance, if you want to have degree in order to practice accountability or being a pharmacist, or being notaire, or being a lawyer then you need a practical internship. Since there is a limited amount of position offered, then being a «son of a» de facto gives you some priviledges that will translate in real money.
Since the state regulates these liberal professions there income are guaranteed to be above the average (given some conditions that are too long to detail, but noticeable).
So it is very tough to distinguish privileges and wealth.
I cannot measure if I am right so it is pure speculation of me. I can actually say I experienced these situations at first and second order. However I cannot say if it is that important in both frequency and impact as I claim it to be.
I am very close to hasty generalisation fallacy because it is hard to be objective when you measure the system in which you are. My point of view is not neutral at all, all the more I feel emotionally involved as an actor in what I describe. I chose to run away instead of being either the victim or the bullier (I came sadly to be both at some point but not enough to feel sad for anyone).
However, I am totally fine with my biases. Although sometimes when I tell these stories, I wonder if I am suffering of delusion because it is not my actual reality at all and it feels so impossible.
Because latter are much more frequent, and you may mess with them. And it's not like the difference is apparent.
Is the scare of running into an influental kid so strong that they avoid all well off kids entirely? Because, you know, influental kids may look like anyone. You never know.
Criteria by order of importance: colour of skins mainly, sex, dressing.
For all day life crime, if you are kid from a «famous person» you can try to get off the hook by invoking your relationships. (Jean Pierre Pernaud's kid (a famous TV anchor) tried it while speeding on an highway at 190km/h where it was limited at 90km/h. (that was what a local police guy said while sharing a beer. He may have lied, but this story even if it false is so close to what people feel that I can accept it as true enough)).
For free loading in transport you can get annoyed (a 5$ crime). For forgetting to pay wages or bills, not enforcing the basics of security in your activity or even forgetting to pay social charges(count in k$), even if you are caught on the spots you will be hardly annoyed and humilated.
They are poor's crimes and rich's crimes (that cost more to the collectivity).
A white business man not respecting the law using like being a proven spammer (artprice) and exploiting his salarymen is an exemple to the society. An arab business man providing good weed and exploiting his «cousins» is a criminal. Drug dealers at the bottom of the hierarchy are paid like at the minimum rate regarding the risks taken.
Since the pushers are coloured and there is quite a discrimination, thus the society makes it easier for the kingpin to have cheap dedicated workforce. Business is business, not a charitative association. And the rules of business applies all alike. You cant get rich without capital and Income < outcome.
And fiscal evasion is not sanctionned on the long run if you accept to finally pay your due: fiscal administration will consent to close their eyes on some points.
Fiscal inequality is at its top. VAT makes it hard for people not to be taxed, and this is the biggest origin of taxes. On the other hand fiscal laws makes it easier for the richer to evade the taxes on income and patrimonial.
The poor get poorer and more subject to social violence, while rich get richer and more subject to physical violence. In a closed system if you compress a part, the compression has to propagate somewhere.
Btw, the system is truly meritocratic. To get to be a journalist you have very fair selection after highschool.
But oddly enough «sectorisation of the school maps» make it harder for poor kids to reach the good high schools that are statistically bound to be able to reach the «entry level» of the honestly fairly selective meritocratic system. I don't say you can't be successful. I just say a system is unfair when some kids begins life with a 10 kg loaded bag, and others none and you are being required to first do 42km under a chrono before beginning to compete a fair competition.
That may explain why the journalists that are scared of going beyond the «périphérique» (the border of Paris) often (not always) makes it look like this place is another planet when they write articles. It is quite tragically comic to read their papers.
People do publish http://www.bondyblog.fr/ (bondy are not the only one, but the most famous).
And they show the positive side of our place: creativity, openness, intiative.
And it is cool. They just don't have any audience.
When something happens, google news never index their point of view as relevant for you, nor do the journalists ask them to publish except some confidential alterweb media (like rue89/mediapart/indimedia).
It is fun that the social fracture also affects google algorithms.
Part of the process of becoming an adult is to learn how we, as a societey can work ourselves up, so that robberies are not a necessity or a regularity, at all.
We can certainly lower the rewards for street robbery while keeping the risks high; Apple took a pretty major step already.
Let's hope street robbers don't start kidnapping people and milking the balance out of their accounts over a few days rather than just robbing cards.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/2382134.print/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-400032/Teenager-kidn...
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/news/armed-gang-kidnapped-...
...Or, they have no fucking clue and will just take everything you have on you because they're mugging you :-)
Reply says "do the muggers know that? They mug people, and they might not know that an iPhone X is worthless to them"
That's not circular.
You're lowering the reward while holding the risk constant. As technology makes the street value of stolen items lower and lower, eventually street robbery will be less attractive.
On the other hand, having the phone send out photos and GPS coordinates is a much better idea, and it's been proven to work.
I think that things are so polarized in France.It's to late to fix anything.
I have a big issue with cops. They clearly dont control anything anymore so all they end up doing is bothering passersby. They are just useless.No body respect them,so in return they dont respect people either. Ever filed a complain in a police station? you are treated just like a criminal,they cant even tell the different between victims and criminals anymore.
Now is there a "racial" factor? I there is definetly an cultural or ethnic factor. If all immigrants from africa were educated doctors or engineers,things would be different, I guess. White people always point at the chinese for an exemple of "successfull" immigration. At the same time let's not forget who made them come here and why, obviously africans were ready to accept any job for a very low pay.But now their youth are not ready to accept the same living conditions.
Given my experience,as an african, I know there is a strong sense of tribalism and little sense of community or "public good" amongst africans.You own stuff or you dont,there is no "let's share that stuff for the greater good".I think that's something quite important to understand when trying to analyse the situation.
There is of course racism ,white people cant deny that,most white people would prefer giving a job or an appartment to a white person when they are in a position to decide.Ironically black people in the same position would do the same,given how much they distrust their own kind.
I guess the only people that can change things are african immigrant themself.Isolate the "bad" ones and try to work on a better image,better role models,etc... when the only role models of a generation are rappers with stupid lyrics like Booba or Rohff ,it cannot make things better.
But again there is very little sense of community amongst african immigrants,the "community" often is limited to the family.
But, I am very optimistic by nature, so I have good hopes for the future.
To be honest, I was not bornt an accepting person without prejudice. I might have been a little obnoxious teen with a lot of prejudices (it goes without saying I was kind of racist without noticing it). But, I think education and experiencing what I lived where not quite bad actually.
It opened my eyes, and made me quite a better man. If it happens to me, it can happen to every one eventually.
So let's hope together :)
Wow. How do you manage to bring Israel into this is beyond my comprehension. 1. can you please describe the mechanism by which the Israeli conflict "spreads" ? 2. Gaza is not a ghetto of Israel, and Gazans are not Israeli citizens. 3. Israel has people of all colors and even though there are poor cities and rich cities, but nothing like what you have in Paris.
And what country are they citizens of? Does that country provide them with freedom of unmolested cross-border travel, commerce and stuff?
Unless there's a clear answer to those questions Israel is going to be a poster country with ghetto problems.
As I've read about it:
People were commuting from both the West Bank and Gaza into Israel to work, before the terrorism got too bad.
People in Israel used to go with their cars to have them fixed in Gaza. And so on.
After the Intifadas stopped all that, Israel had a depression. And had to start to get more work force from somewhere where they weren't taught with their mothers milk to hate Jews.
A bad loss for everyone. (And insane from the outside viewpoint, where these cultures look quite similar.)
And I don't make a parallel on the political situation (you know you can read something to the end) but on the social AND topological situation: lack of mixity between two populations + reduced geographically speaking capacity of moving for the poorest + obvious signs of discrimination = what we call in our slang ghettoisation)
I suggest that the political situation just aggravates a socio economical situation that already have the same effects everywhere in the world.
About the police, as far as I remember, somewhere around 2003-2004 there was this huge push to keep uniformed policemen on the corners.
The worst case was in the subway, when a big black guy talked incoherently in bad Swedish and started to beat on the windows with a crowbar.
I shrugged, walked to the next wagon and called the police. I gave up when I realised they weren't interested in hearing which subway line I was on and what time, so they could meet up with it.
At least they answered that time...
The point is, not long after some crazy person killed a few people with a baseball bat or something outside a subway station. I always wondered if it was the same person. (I didn't see any pictures in the newspapers, which implies an immigrant, like the crowbar guy.)
It doesn't matter if it was the same person, a bunch of violent crazy and/or drugged people will destroy others' lives as long as they are outside.
(As I understand, the Finnish police otoh is well respected and trusted. I don't really know about Denmark/Finland.)
Actually recently the cops have been told not to engage when a crime is occurring, and instead just to take notes. They don't want riots.
A week ago a riot occurred in Rinkeby (islamic enclave) when a cop stopped a speeding car.
They take shit from thugs AND from politician trying to score easy points painting the cops as the bad guys.
Public should have switched to "cops are bad guys unless there is an immigrant involved" long ago.
guard-of-terra for Mayor!
The main take off is - it works until you break it. If you have a broken socity, stop complaining and fix it, it's absolutely doable.
That is the first step to ghettos controlled by criminals. So Sweden seems to go the way of Brazil's favelas. Note that Brazil is going the other way, finally. :-(
Literally 10 seconds with Google:
http://www.dn.se/sthlm/200-i-rinkebyupplopp-polis-skadad-av-...
(The publication date is "2014-07-24 08:31". ~ A week ago.)
Your other option is the police in the USA - <insert overreacting in some way while investigating the alleged criminal>
P. S. I understand that usage of the word "wagon" makes native english speakers' heads explode.
tunnelbana == tunnel + path/track
tunnelbanevagn == subway car.
Just a couple of lessons should equip you well enough to avoid what happened here. Give the lessons some time and you should have enough to deal with multiple assailants, knife, stick and gun threats.
I see this as a basic life skill, right up there with at least enough knowledge to differentiate a Monet from a Van Gogh, or a Beethoven from a Rachmaninoff.
In my last 30 years, I never had to fight anyone or differentiate a Monet from a Van Gough or a Beethoven from a Rachmaninoff. Then again, I don't life in crime heavy neighbourhoods or go to dinner parties that fancy.
Maybe that's something for the next 30.
edit - Defending yourself is a basic life skill. Not ever getting into a fight means you are already fairly good at it.
Yeah, getting intimidated by neds was part of my growing up. You learn how to show them enough respect not to annoy them, without looking wimpish enough for you to be an easy target.
Some people must have proper sheltered lives.
It is a software dominated forum. This is just an anecdote, but I'd guess >80% of the developers I have met are from comfortably middle - upper middle class families/areas.
I'm interested in these things because I can't predict the future, but like to prepare for it. Also because knowing how to mix a drink or who composed Peter and the Wolf makes for interesting conversation with people I naturally feel comfortable around. Each to their own I guess.
Statistically speaking, not interesting or relevant to almost anyone, and a net drag on society in general.
OK, I don't expect rationality from racists or anti racists (but then, in Sweden "anti racist" seems to be a code word for antisemite. No, sadly not joking.)
But... I can't off the top of my head name a culture that has never used spears and javelins.
Edit: First, spears is an universal farmer's weapon most everywhere. Second, thanks guard-of-terra: It is a shame -- considering all the English I have consumed for decades (both professionally and in literature etc) -- that I don't even seem to know the basic racist insults. :-)
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spear+chucker
While self-defense is a useful skill, there isn't a good way to practice actual street fighting except to actually do it. (Martial arts sparring is not the same thing.) And, in street fights, even if you're skilled, you can die. So it's best to avoid the context in which those skills are gained.
The only sane option is to avoid street fights whenever possible.
Give the lessons some time and you should have enough to deal with multiple assailants, knife, stick and gun threats.
No martial art makes it safe to deal with a guy with a weapon. Even an idiot with a knife or a brick can get lucky. You're best off just not to carry a lot of money in unfamiliar places. If you're in a risky place, put a small amount of money in a decoy wallet (losing the cash isn't a big deal compared to losing ID, credit cards, passport) and, if you have them, some expired cards. Most robbers are junkies who don't care about the cards anyway, because you can't buy drugs with a card. Flash the bills (at least a couple of $20s preferably), chuck the wallet, and get the fuck out.
Likewise, with four assailants, no martial art is going to give you the upper hand. 4-on-1 is just a bad place to be. In the movies, putting serious hurt on one of them intimidates the other three and allows you to fight them (or chase them off) serially, Oldboy style. In real life, it doesn't usually work that way. They might run away, or they might get even more pissed off after you fuck up their friend. You're betting on 3 people all choosing "run away". Not great odds.
You're somewhat better off with the martial arts knowledge than without, and it probably gives you the upper hand in 1-on-1 when there is no weapon (even against a physically stronger opponent) but the thing about street fights is that you're making decisions in split seconds and you never know when a weapon will come out or friends will be called in. Again, even an idiot can get lucky and knock you out or kill you. With 4 people, it's even more likely that they'll continue to fuck you up after you're down.
I often think about how much of a hassle it would be to cancel all credit cards, get new IDs, and replace everything in my wallet.
Yep. If someone approaches you with a gun or a knife, and your opponent is actually willing to shoot or stab you, even a black belt is probably getting stabbed or shot. The best defense is always to not be there at all. Though sometimes that's not an option (but more often than not, it is.)
Another good point you make - sparring is nothing like the real thing. Totally agree. You can train for that too though, and there are a number of good techniques to prepare for it. Some good book on the subject include Facing Violence by Rory Miller, and On Kiling, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Dude, please don't say that. Maybe someone who has trained at least for ten years could handle a 4 vs 1 fight. Maybe. And never with 100% probability of winning.
If you are in such a situation, just run the fuck away, or give them what they want. And stop believing and spreading the fact that handling a 4 vs 1 fight is doable "with some training".
Hey did you do the search on YouTube? Guess not. Sergei and Larry should've just given up too. They were told search is a dead end. They were also super stupid, not listening to people who totally knew better...
Just get a gun and get it over with.
I did this exercise once, where my training partner held a paintball gun a couple inches from my chest. My job was to disarm him without getting shot. His job was to shoot as soon as he saw me move. It took five attempts before I got it. And getting hit at that range is a great incentive - all we had on was a facemask and overalls over shorts and a t-shirt.