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Comment by kolev | Hacker News Reader

Yes and they all are powerful goitrogenic plants. Don't eat them raw... unless you hate your thyroid! When I see people sipping on raw kale juice, I feel sorry for them! Raw is not always better! Would you eat raw potatoes, for example, or raw mushrooms (toxins), or spinach (rich in oxalates)?

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If you have a healthy thyroid, raw kale is fine. Similarly, if you have healthy kidneys the amount of oxalates in raw kale or spinach shouldn't be a problem.

So tired of hearing this nonsense from people who read a few blog posts instead of asking their doctor.

Hmmm... I think "healthy" is very relative and Google is planning to put all its powers to determine exactly what that means. How about not relying on something so subjective and just do a little extra effort to cook the problematic foods?

Even calling them "problematic" is hugely exaggerating the risks, getting an iodine deficiency from eating too much kale would be an exceptional case (iodine deficiency is a rare condition to begin with).

I've discussed this with my physician, they said it was nothing to worry about if you're healthy.

Healthy meaning "doesn't have kidney disease." Not very subjective.

You probably wanted to say "doesn't have a diagnosed kidney disease." If you think you can fully diagnose kidney health just by lack of symptoms and basic blood and urine tests, you're wrong. No physician will do, for example, an ultrasound without symptoms - this is how the flawed system works. Iodine deficiency actually is common in many geographies and, if I remember correctly, it's became more common with the vilification of salt as iodized salt is the main source of iodine for many.

Are you suggesting its prudent to assume you have kidney disease? If so, you'll want to avoid a whole lot more than just kale.

Not sure why you're suggesting thats a flawed system, the vast majority of people don't have kidney disease. Are you suggesting we should subject people with no risk factors or symptoms to expensive tests for every disease, no matter how uncommon?

The suggestion is that raw kale, spinach etc. would reliably cause iodine deficiency, which just isn't the case. If someone is eating a diet w/ adequate iodine, some raw veggies are not going cause any problems.

No, I'm suggesting that you should not assume that you don't have a kidney disease just because you had basic blood and urine work done.

Well, for me, I hate cooked broccoli, love it raw. Although come to think of it, I never eat all that much in one sitting.

So I'll be looking into the details of this.

Trans-lycopene in cooked tomatoes is times more compared to raw, for example. Steamed broccoli is definitely more pleasant to eat to most and those chewing it raw mostly do it thinking it's healthier this way. The popular wisdom is that in a soup, cell walls of vegetables are broken and nutrients are released in the broth - is there a PubMed article on this? How about centuries-old practice instead? Just now medicine finds, for example, the merits of Ayurveda. For example, the combination of turmeric and black pepper in curry is now scientifically proven to increase curcumin's bioavailability by orders of magnitude. Should you always wait decades or forever for science to prove something that's passed the test of the ages?

> How about centuries-old practice instead?

Centuries-old practice had people leeching the vile humors out of their bodies when they got sick, too. The ancients got a lot of stuff wrong, and what they got right was largely by accident. I'll trust scientific rigor along with the confidence intervals and error bars over received wisdom every time.

Also, here's a link to a Pubmed article on chicken soup:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002768/

Nothing about breaking down the cell walls of vegetables to release the nutrients, so I don't know if that's true.

And here's another Pubmed article about soup, highlighting the danger of food fads (because people don't want to wait for nutritional science to prove something and instead rely on the "test of the ages"):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3279073/

I meant to say "practices that survived till nowadays". Your position of "PubMed it or it didn't happen" is really entertaining.

Homeopathy has survived until nowadays, despite a lack of evidence of efficacy.

You also mis-characterize my position on PubMed. It is a search engine with which I am familiar, not the summation of all scientific medicine. If I can't find something in PubMed, my thoughts on a matter remain "dunno", which is orthogonal to "believe/disbelieve" or "accept/reject". I included links to PubMed articles on soup as a humorous rejoinder to your rhetorical question. That was probably unnecessary, and I apologize.

Well, homeopathy, Dr. Schuessler's salts, and Dr. Bach's flower remedies are most probably just a placebo, which is better than many drugs especially in the States, although I know many who swear the Boiron flu "meds" really work and I don't think placebo performs well with viral and bacterial infections.

Have you had cooked broccoli and melted cheese? One of the best ways to ruin the healthiness of a vegetable.

Pfft, cauliflower-cheese in a baking tree is where it's at, yo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rosminah/6005082151/

Yep, same here. I also love cole slaw, but can't stand any form of cooked cabbage.

Unfortunately, fermentation does not neutralize the goitrogens either, i.e. sauerkraut although much healthier alternative of the raw cabbage still takes its thyroid toll.

http://chriskresser.com/do-raw-vegetables-hurt-your-thyroid-...

I just looked this up in the PubMed biomedical literature database and there aren't many studies that correlate the goitrogenic activity of cabbages, et al., to human thyroid activity.

What's the impact of having kale juice once a day for a year? What if we simply consume extra iodine? Send links to papers if you have any primary references.

Well, a 16 oz bottle of juiced kale is a lot of kale! I've seen people having 2-3 of those a day. It's not precise science to know how much extra iodine to consume, I think. Raw kale is known for ages to make livestock sick. Either Dr. Fuhrman or Dr. Weil recommended that the best way to take full advantage of kale is to blend it, let it sit for 10 minutes, and then put it in a soup or another cooked meal.

Going by the argument that kale makes livestock sick, humans should never consume garlic, or chocolate, because they're poisonous to dogs and cats.

Different animals have different metabolisms.

Not that this is a PubMed article (which the crowd here takes as the only truth), but it's an interesting read nonetheless: http://huntgatherlove.com/content/just-kale-me-how-your-kale...

Edit: Sorry, I liked to the wrong article! Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't eat kale - just that it's not justified or even scientifically correct to eat it raw! Here's the article I wanted to link to: http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-kale-a...

Did you read that article fully? It's a satire (see the last section)...

Did you actually read that article? Especially the last section, which contains this actually good advice:

But when you see an article that demonizes a food, think about whether or not there are citations and follow those citations. Ask yourself whether they apply to human beings eating a diverse diet with adequete [sic] calories. Or whether they involve very high concentrations no human being eats, isolated chemicals, or preparations that no normal human would put on their plate.

EDIT: Now that you've added an article, I recommend you read the first as preparation for reading the second with an appropriately critical mind.

Your new article links this article:

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/01/thyroid-doc-kale-proble...

The endocrinologist answering questions says Basically the goitrogens are challenges to the thyroid. But in the absence of iodine deficiency, substantial or prolonged ingestion of dietary goitrogens and lastly the absence of an underlying thyroid disorder, the risk in this country of having problems in this area are very, very low, almost minuscule. Again, that’s because the vast majority of people have adequate iodine levels to counteract the effect of goitrogens.

So modest consumption doesn't seem like it is going to bother healthy people any.

Doesn't this apply to everything? Anything consumed in excess will probably have negative effects. A balanced diet being the most optimal.

"Balanced" according to which methodology? To that vilifying saturated fats, for example, or the new that does the opposite, for example? When it comes to nutrition, there's no single source of truth!

Source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen makes the same claims, but has a long list of indicted veggies, with notably missing/broken sources.

raw mushrooms and raw spinach are certainly popular...

(Oh man, it was weird to look up "kale". Google translate seems to offer lots of suggestions that aren't exactly edible)

I eat mushrooms raw, quite a lot. You seem to think that this is a bad idea, but.. I wouldn't know why (and would certainly have a hard time believing that this is Not Good). It might help to present a bit of a disclaimer/"this is.where I'm coming from" statement in your post, before you start?

It depends on the species. I believe most store mushrooms are fine, but for example, raw morels have monomethylhydrazine in them (or compounds that degrade into hydrazine). Rocket fuel. Of course not huge amounts, but it's not good for you.

False morels have higher concentrations of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromitra_esculenta

I eat raw broccoli and raw spinach even together in a salad. I can even go to the store and find raw spinach prepackaged in salads, claiming they are ready to eat.

Raw mushrooms are pretty common in salads too.

Spinach is a different species.

Yes, but the person I replied to raised the alarm about spinach being toxic.

I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up! Like the karma here will pay my bills. I guess the kale makes you aggressively vindictive. No, I don't have a PubMed article for that causation/correlation.

> I guess there are way too many kale sippers here as downvotes are piling up!

Maybe people just think you're a jackass.

Not really the reason to do the effort. People are offended that somebody is questioning their nectar... of hypothyroidism!

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