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Comment by chroma | Hacker News Reader

If you haven't tried MDMA, I strongly recommend it.[1] I've used it twice in the past six years, and it has completely changed how I interact with others. Rolling on MDMA drastically curbed my social phobias. All of my negative social emotions: my neuroticism, my self-consciousness, even bitter emotions such as envy; all of them disappeared on MDMA. Afterwards, I felt as if I'd been cured of a mental illness. While I'm certainly not as outgoing and selfless as I would be on MDMA, I've moved my typical behavior closer toward that. It has made me a healthier, happier human being. More importantly, my interactions help others much more than they used to.

It is a tragedy that some parts of the US government try so hard to restrict this drug. I fully agree that it is a powerful, dangerous drug. Still, for most purposes, the benefits almost certainly outweigh the harms. I think future generations will look back on this as a moral failing of our time.

1. In moderation, of course, and mega-caveats for anyone who has a family history of schizophrenia. MDMA is not good for your brain. However, I think for many people it may be necessary to use the drug to open a figurative door. I wish better drugs existed, but research in the field has been stifled.

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There is no reason to assume that there are no substances that can either temporarily alter you and inspire you to pursue a certain state of mind more often (without the drug) or that can alter you for a longer time.

That said, the birth of my son altered me for a long time (made more emotional, better able to enjoy emotion). Finishing the reconstruction of my house with my own hands altered me (showed me I can do major things when I just start doing them). Getting my PhD showed me that even though I reached the maximum level of education I can still have insecurities about my intelligence and they are thus irrational. Reading Atlas Shrugged changed me from someone who automatically though from a group perspective to someone who kept his own needs at a higher priority by showing me the moral rational for this type of thinking.

I never tried LSD or the like but aren't they just shortcuts to states of mind I can attain by learning myself to be more grateful for what I have? To be more social and nice? Can I attain the long term effects of psychedelic drugs by reading? By learning how to meditate? That is what I always believed.

Perhaps at some point I will experiment, now I feel I can't take any risks, I need my brain the way it is to provide for my family.

Some religious people believe that some people are created to go to hell. Some people have strong minds and can open doors inside them on their own, without chemical assistance. Some people are bipolar and need hospitalization until one day their doctor tries them on lithium, and suddenly they can function again as normal, productive members of society.

I have never read PIhKaL or TIhKaL but I am aware of the 1-10 rating scale, so forgive me if I over-simplify but I'll explain it briefly in case you've never heard of this. Chemicals are rated on a scale of -10 to +10 based on the potency and reliability of the experience they produce. +10 is not said to be a linear extension of +9, instead +10 is said to be reserved for drugs that ingesting the substance can be shown to produce a "religious experience" where your perception is changed, you see God, and everything is right for you. (Not necessarily reliably, or every time, but enough for viziers such as Shulgin to have felt a need to document it in this way.)

Looking it up now I see the "Shulgin Scale" really only goes up to +4: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale

If you read the "canonical" interpretation of +4, it's clear that what you're describing as having changed you in these ways is similar, if not the same; probably you'd agree with this regardless of your position on God or religion. While I appreciate your belief, if I had seen positive effects on people using the drug then what you're saying wouldn't change my mind about the effectiveness or about a potential good that could come out of the drug. Maybe it's a shortcut, or maybe for some person even with similar experience to yours it's still the only way for them to have that experience and to open those doors.

(NB: I don't have any children, and I'm neither sure that I could build a decent house with my bare hands.)

Some may be offended by your characterization of LSD as a "shortcut," but that's exactly how I see it. And that's a good thing! LSD (and other psychedelics) can give you a fascinating glimpse of what is possible -- then, a few hours later, you're back to "normal." It's an experience that has driven many to take up meditation, yoga, etc. in pursuit of achieving that same state of mind without drugs. If you believe you're already "there," that's great. But in my view, there is always room to grow.

Am... LSD and MDMA are 2 completely different drugs, with different effects. LSD causes hallucinations, while MDMA causes euphoria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug#Uses

Sure drugs are a short-cut, but you say that like it's a bad thing. What rational person wouldn't want to use a short-cut to get to a desired destination?

Did you do that work on your house with trees you'd taken down with your teeth? Or did you use a bunch of short-cuts, developed over hundreds of thousands of years, from saws to cut wood to hammers that pound nails to an exchange economy that allows you to work at one thing and pay someone else to do another for you (like build hammers etc). How big a short-cut is that!

Civilization is nothing but a huge collection of short-cuts.

Every tech company is in the business of developing and selling short-cuts.

So don't be running down short-cuts: they are what make our lives communal, rich, pleasant, civilized and long.

The issues with drugs are not that they get us to places we'd like to go without the otherwise-arduous work required, it's that they don't necessarily get us there, and they can get us to places that are very difficult to get out of. But the very fact that they can mess you up in ways you can't achieve by reading or meditation suggests they can give us positive effects that can't be achieved in other ways. It's not something I'd likely do myself, but if people are bad places already, suffering from PTSD and the like, it's not unreasonable for them to take the damned short-cut if it has a plausible chance of working.

That said, I'm in favour of legalization, or at least decriminalization, in part to reduce the risks: MDMA in particular involves a synthesis that I'd really like to see done in a quality-controlled environment (there are mercury compounds involved and if the chemist screws up their clients can die, which unfortunately happens, and would not happen if the drug was legal, so I lay those deaths at the feet of prohibitionists.)

There are plenty of easy ways to experience altered states. Don't sleep for three days, Hyperventilate, Extreme Sauna, etc. The problem is it's generally a random experience, and random in no way imply's beneficial. So, it's a shortcut to some random place which might be useful, but some people get rich playing the lotto does not mean it's a good idea on average.

> Don't sleep for three days, Hyperventilate, Extreme Sauna, etc.

People are really underestimating altered states when they've never experienced them. Psychedelic drugs are not as subtle as what you are describing and MDMA in particular is not random at all.

Also don't confuse the immediate effect of the drug with what you learn from the experience.

I agree, and I must say I'm pretty curious after reading more and more about these substances. But I'm really not in a situation that allows experimenting. I'd loose the trust of people I depend on that are less open minded. As said, Maybe in another phase of life.

Actually I do know people that messed up their life pretty bad on xtc and weed (ok, perhaps 16 is to young to experiment). Alcohol also messed up the life of someone dear. To be really fair perhaps he just needed more and more to maintain normal social functioning and his anxieties and a lurking depression were probably the real cause.

I am totally with you. I must admit that at first I was taking ecstasy (MDMA) in a club setting. Yes, it was a ball. It opened me to the idea of talking to the opposite sex and not expecting them to roll their eyes and walk away.

After a while I began taking it at home and listening to music that inspired me. I began to reflect on my childhood when I had 2 verbally abusive parents. I had shut those thoughts out, and at 25 began dealing with them and seeing the effect their abuse had on me. MDMA allowed me to look at those relationships in a completely loving light and realize them for what they were; 2 people who could not express themselves appropriately. It changed my love for them in a very positive way, even after "the roll" had stopped. I forgave them for the many years of anguish I experienced in middle school, high school and college. I had literally ignored them since college out of anger for a lost childhood. Being able to love them again made me realize that I can love others too. Around that time is when I began to trust people and it is when I met my future spouse.

It's a tough thing to admit, but MDMA had better reparation on my emotional and psychological state than many years of church and reading books. I love God, I know he's guiding us, and I think sometimes healing power starts on the inside of your mind. If you're a religious person, the first two commandments are "Love God", and "Love your neighbor". MDMA helped me on both of those.

I just read a statistic the other day that veteran suicide rates are increasing. As a non-combat veteran, I wish I could take the many troubled and PTSD afflicted and have them try MDMA to work through their issues in a controlled therapy session.

Once or twice, perhaps. But I'd strongly caution against using MDMA regularly.

Lost in all the DEA-fueled hysteria that tried to show the potential lethality of the drugs (which was laughable, considering basic observation of recreational usage showed it was almost never fatal) was the more subtle consequences of the drug. For instance, of the group that I used to "roll" with, all but one of us have suffered from a diagnosed depression. It's a small sample size, but 9 out of 10 people is somewhat alarming and it's not hard to find plenty of examples of people online claiming to suffer from similar symptoms after prolonged MDMA usage.

So I'd temper your recommendation. It's still a substance that you need to be very careful with. For one, there are so many other substances that are much more dangerous that are easier to produce and sold as MDMA. If you're going to use the drug, make sure you're using the actual drug. Second, be mindful that the actual dangers are far more subtle than the scaremongering would have you believe but can be almost as devastating.

Something to consider is that people seek out a particular experience often to offset an existing experience or condition.

Ecstasy use could have been a source of self-medication for the effects of depression in the folks you hung out with, rather than a cause of that depression. Like many self-medicators, they and you may not have recognized the symptoms of depression consciously before using the drug, which could lead to a misconception of cause/effect timing.

But, just a thought, obviously not knowing you or them.

I can really relate to this, because I had a similar experience. However, for me the drug was alcohol. I could take your post, replace "MDMA" with "alcohol" and it would almost exactly describe my experience. People tend to forget that alcohol is a mind-altering drug like any other, but it totally is of course.

I was a teetotaler until my mid-tweens, and still I only drink in moderation. I've only gotten shitfaced once, when a pretty girl was hitting on me and kept buying us shots (an unlikely scenario, I know - hence the only once). However, that one time was enough to cure a lot of social anxieties for me.

Like your MDMA experiences for you, that one-time experience of drunk buffoonery opened the door to self-healing. In my case the fact that I managed to be a drunk idiot without being a drunk asshole made me worry less about losing control in general. That also highlights that while it worked for me, it's unlikely to work for everyone (and I'm sure you all have anecdotal experiencethat backs this up...). So my conclusions are the same: the usefulness of mind-altering drugs is highly context-sensitive and misunderstood.

I'm glad alcohol helped you, but have you ever tried psychedelics such as LSD, psilocybin, or MDMA? The effects are fundamentally different. Psychedelics have a much higher chance of triggering profound and transformative experiences.

Sam Harris, who I hope most people on HN can accept as someone with a slightly above average intelligence, seems to agree with you. He wrote a very interesting article on his experience with LSD: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-...

I am aware that different drugs have wildly different effects. I was just trying to point out that even alcohol - something considered "mundane" by most - should technically be considered a transformative, mind-altering drug.

Ate a tiny piece of space cake once and ended up jumping out of a window. Years I did MDMA once and did not notice much effects (and it wasn't a dud - I shared it with a friend and they definitely noticed its effects). Another anecdote suggesting that the effects of these drugs on people greatly depend on your state of mind when you take them. It's precisely there where we have little hard data on how the drugs work, I think.

Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports?

For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion. And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion.

If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first?

You only have to try MDMA once. Its acute effects will last around six hours. I've met many people who have attested to the profound effect it's had on their lives.

Religion is a bit more of a commitment. And, for it to have the desired effects, often requires you to change what you believe about the world.

> Is there any evidence of MDMA making users better people, other than self reports?

Generally, no. You can't become better by taking a drug, but they're not talking about bettering themselves. They're talking about healing. If your intention is to better yourself with the aid of psychedelic drugs[1], you'll only get out what you put in, and psychedelics will mostly only inspire you to put forth the effort. edit: You still have to work at improving yourself through other means.

> For each individual who says psychedelics have made them a better person, there are hundreds who make the same claim about religion.

Well, not that many people are willing to try psychedelics.

> And I think we can all agree that the risk of biological side effects is much lower with religion.

Every year more people are killed in the name of religion than by psychedelics. Psychedelics kill noone. Their LD50 is usually too high.

> If I were going to follow your advice and try MDMA, shouldn't I follow my father's advice and try religion first?

Sure, but please try more than one religion, and check out philosophy too. You can choose whether or not to try MDMA in the same way that you can choose whether or not to go sky diving.

[1] This is not an inherently misguided idea, but in uncontrolled environments, psychedelics can be quite dangerous.

> You can't become better by taking a drug

I'm going to mostly point out that although this is an appealing idea: that we only get out of ourselves what we put in/etc./etc. there's no reason for it to be true. In fact, I'd expect that for some drugs, it's probably not true: if you're talking about a substance that has dramatic, longer term effects on the functioning of seratonin/dopamine systems in the brain.

Moving away from the kind of nebulous 'better person' realm and into a slightly more measurable/agreed upon "normal person" realm, it's patently untrue for those with nonstandard brain chemistry (and completely backed by scientific+medical consensus--drugs are a baseline treatment for bipolar disorder or schizophrenia), and so I think there's no reason why drug use should not improve the experience/behaviors of people with what our society has deemed 'normal' or 'normal-enough' brain chemistry. I don't think there's something so different about people with what are considered diseases with a larger genetic component which have lasted for centuries: they are likely caused by a combination of otherwise beneficial traits coming together in a less than beneficial way.

Also, since the diseases I mentioned often do involve long term maintenance medication taken on a daily basis (such that there's always some amount of it in a patient's bloodstream), I think it's worth also mentioning that there are treatments for otherwise drug resistant depression such as electroconvulsive therapy which are effective when used every few months or only once or twice. I don't think it's unreasonable to assert that there are likely compounds that have impacts on people's brain chemistry that last longer than the life of the drug in the bloodstream.

I'd like to note, though, that I'm not advocating going and taking psychedelic drugs in an attempt to better oneself. They're compounds which have debatable (and unresearched) longer term effects on those who imbibe them, and which have fairly established negative impact on people who take them and are at risk for developing a serious mental illness. (family history, etc.) I think that the appropriate thing to do is to pressure govt. and push society to allow for actual, well founded scientific research into the matter. (I say this as someone who has taken a psychedelic drug once, and wouldn't attribute any long term betterment or changes in personality/etc. to it. However, as someone fairly familiar with mental illness and its treatment, I think that it's reasonable to assert that drugs with strong impacts on brain chemistry--and certainly on the functioning of the seratonin system, which is often implicated in depression, bipolar disorder, and psychotic disorders might have beneficial uses in treatment of some individuals, and perhaps betterment of those with more 'normal' brain chemistry.)

> I'm going to mostly point out that although this is an appealing idea: that we only get out of ourselves what we put in/etc./etc. there's no reason for it to be true.

A) Meditation takes concerted effort (by definition). B) Meditaiton has been shown to increase empathy: http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/060608.htm Conclusion) You can put effort into improving yourself and improve yourself (in this case: become more empathetic toward others).

> They're compounds which have debatable (and unresearched) longer term effects on those who imbibe them,

25 years is pretty long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment#Doblin... But we do need more.

> and which have fairly established negative impact on people who take them and are at risk for developing a serious mental illness. (family history, etc.)

Yes. If you have a family history of schizophrenia (or other severe mental illnesses), you shouldn't try psychedelic drugs. They can precipitate schizophrenic episodes, psychotic breaks, and the like.

Other than that, I totally agree. I was just trying to clearly and succinctly discount the enlightenment-in-a-pill attitude.

Allow me to preface this by saying I think we are in agreement, but I want to make sure we understand each other.

GP was just pointing out there is no law of nature that says the things worth having require effort. Your meditation anecdote is correct, but does not address the comment. There are things which are very good for us, but take little personal effort to attain (antibiotics are a good example, to continue with the drug theme...)

I believe meditation is an important, effortful aspect to understanding myself and how I relate to the world. I also believe that the psychedelic experiences I have had have worked in a similar, complementary manner. In either case, the amount of effort it took is not necessarily connected with the value received.

(Also, FWIW, not all meditation is concerted effort. Do you mean mindfulness? I believe Zen meditation advises that you let go of everything and do not focus; the blank slate principle and all that.)

Thank you for your polite comment.

> Psychedelics kill noone. Their LD50 is usually too high.

Perhaps, for pure 'traditional' psychedelics like LSD. (I'm not sure if there are any known direct toxicity-related deaths from it, including doses ~1000x typical). MDMA, on the other hand, can cause fatal hyperthermia or serotonin syndrome at ~10x typical dose.

Some of the 'novel psychoactive substances' gaining recent popularity due to their ambiguous legal status have much, much worse safety profiles. The 2C-x-NBOMe family is especially troublesome in that regard.

Also, consider exactly what the 50 in LD50 means.

And we won't even consider 'drug-related' fatalities, since it's even harder to find unbiased reporting on them as a class.

It might be a very small number (and I believe it is), but it ain't zero.

> Perhaps, for pure 'traditional' psychedelics like LSD. (I'm not sure if there are any known direct toxicity-related deaths from it, including doses ~1000x typical). MDMA, on the other hand, can cause fatal hyperthermia or serotonin syndrome at ~10x typical dose.

There is the elephant that died after a massive overdose of LSD. I'm mot sure if the LSD killed it or the exertion it went through after being given the LSD killed it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tusko#The_elephant_on_LSD

There is a case where 8 people snorted two lines of pure LSD each thinking it was cocaine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129381/pdf/west...). All survived with no lasting effects, although they were fortunate to receive emergency medical care within 15 minutes after administration. 5 were comatose and 3 were in respiratory arrest, but unlike the elephant none experienced convulsions.

Psilocybin mushrooms can cause allergic reactions: http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/mu/allergy_psilocybe.html

> Psychedelics kill noone. Their LD50 is usually too high.

Drugs can kill by mechanisms other than toxicity (and this includes killing people other than the user.)

I don't think I could "try religion" like I can try a drug. I can't just make myself believe in things that I think are impossible and without true belief, religion is just social interaction.

Depends on what kind of religion you mean. I'll occasionally pop in to Zen or Insight meditation sessions, and I've definitely found them helpful. You'd be hard pressed to say that Zen isn't a religion, but since it's not theistic, I don't think belief is particularly necessary for the experience.

You might also check out Sam Harris's latest book. A noted atheist, he's recently written a book called, "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion". I haven't read it, but I heard him on the radio last night, and it sounds like it is aimed squarely at your concern.

But can you really say how high the probability of bad or good effects from MDMA is? Perhaps most people do not get long lasting positive effects, and we only hear about your case due to survivor bias.

Unless you are using it regularly, there aren't any long lasting negative effects either.

> I wish better drugs existed, but research in the field has been stifled.

There has been some promising research with psilocybin: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06....

Glad it helped you however i have to let you know negative social emotions, self-consciousness and even bitter emotions such as envy can be controlled or even removed without drugs however it take a lot of introspection and paradigm shifts.

I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails.

I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues.

> I'm not saying it's easy but it can be done and drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails.

I haven't tried MDMA, or any of they psychedelics. But trustworthy friends report just the opposite. It was trying those drugs that made them understand that different ways of being were possible. It was only then that they started doing the work necessary to make that their normal state.

That makes a lot of sense to me. For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah". It wasn't until I had a couple of intense exercise experiences that I experienced the difference. Now I'm training for my second triathlon (after doing more than a dozen running races).

> For years I heard a lot of talk about how exercise was good for mood and cognition. But as somebody who hated sports, I filed it under "blah blah".

I know exactly what you mean. I don't know whether it's a result of taking LSD or just getting older, but for a lot of things where my initial reaction would be indifference or opposition, I've come to think: Wait, those people actually have a point!

There is also that difference between (rationally) understanding something and understanding something, attaching meaning and value to it.

> drugs should be used as a last resort when all else fails

Why?

> I am afraid people will just choose the easy route and take the drugs instead of doing the inner core work to fix these issues.

What is the problem with that if it helps them all the same?

I've taken MDMA twice. Both were awesome experiences, but I reverted 100% to my socially anxious state within 48 hours of the roll. I was never able to carry the lessons and mental state from my MDMA trips into sober, waking life. Also, the second trip's good vibes were greatly diminished from the first.

It really helps to roll with friends whom you really like, but just can't express that usually. On MDMA you can talk about all things, even those that normally scare you, those where you are afraid - but your friends will understand. Once you've been to that place you can still return to it when sober, because you know the compassion was real. This can really crush your insecurities.

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