Comment by bravo22 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bravo22 | Hacker News Reader

Interesting merchant terminal -- but it seems to be little more than a pretty rendering and physical mock-up right now.

I like how the first guy puts his card in, takes it out AND THEN punches in his PIN, which is exactly how PIN & Chip doesn't work. I would have hoped they'd at least be familiar with the process.

It looks to me like a mobile computer strapped to a terminal. I'm not sure why this is better than having a terminal + iPad or something similar but I'm not the target demographic.

I see many other issues with it:

- Hardware development is hard and long. This looks to be little more than a physical mock-up. For example datasheet lists "Ethernet" is connectivity options but there is no ethernet port visible on the body.

- BLE & GSM antennas are exactly where you wouldn't put either of those. Here is tip: You can't put an antenna behind an LCD. They have metal backings.

- Shouldn't QR & Barcode Scanner be pointing UP? You have very limited field of view when it is pointing down.

- Getting EMV and FIPS certified are going to take a long long time. Granted they could buy that firmware off the shelf to accelerate the process.

Okay, I'll bite. I'm an employee so you'll have to take what I say with a grain of salt.

The video was produced with a cosmetic device and with actors. You're right that the card has to be in the device during PIN entry. The scene you're referring to, however, is depicting tip entry.

The device does not have an ethernet port but we will be shipping with a separate charging dock that will provide wired connectivity.

I can assure you that all of our antennas are not behind LCDs. While compact, the device does have a number of non-LCD surfaces.

The customer facing camera is pointing horizontal. We'll continue to refine the angle (if needed) as we continue testing with our early adopters.

We did in-person demos with over a dozen news agencies. If you have any doubts about the existence of the device, please feel free to reach out to them for confirmation.

I appreciate you posting!

I am not doubting that you are building the product.

You/The company should probably put more effort in correcting the datasheet and the information you put out there. We can only judge by what is being presented. Your datasheet says Ethernet. It doesn't say Ethernet would be on a separate dock. It probably should.

If you are placing the antennas behind plastic surfaces, that is great. You should correct the diagrams.

Further to your point about tip entry, tip should be entered before the transaction is authorized right? So one would assume you'd enter tip then put in the card, and optionally enter a PIN or sign the screen.

I can appreciate that it may be just a video demo, but when you post it to a place like YN people are going to point out errors. Funny enough, that error was pointed out by a friend who was watching over my shoulder. She is not a technical person in any way and it jumped out at her.

No problem. I've been mostly a lurker on HN for a while but this is the first time being put under the microscope. I apologize if I came off as defensive. This is a product that's very close to my heart given the amount of time and effort we've put into the product offering. For the record, none of us here posted the article we are here because of the amount of attention and discussion it has garnered.

Point taken about the errors. There are many things we can improve on all across the board. We made a conscious decision to not let perfect be the enemy of good. The video is done so we won't go back and change that but I will work with the team to fix all of our marketing material to be as accurate as possible. Thank you for pointing out or errors.

With regards to tip entry. Industry standard recommends gratuity be added before PIN but it is not mandatory and is a merchant preference. I can't find all the card network examples easily but I happen to have the AMEX EMV Acceptance Guide open and this is what section 4.2.7 states - "In certain Merchant categories such as restaurants, it is standard practice to enable customers to add a gratuity to the amount of the transaction. There are many different ways in which a gratuity can be added. American Express does not define any specific methods for adding gratuities..." it further goes on to say "American Express recommends that Terminal software enables the Cardmember to add the gratuity amount to the transaction before entering his or her PIN. This enables the transaction to be processed as a normal, “card present” transaction."

In any case, we've all appreciated the various comments on here and it has clearly been the most critical audience of the bunch.

Omissions and errors happen. Your company has responded better than most. I'm glad someone from your company was on the forum to correct the record.

With respect to the tip flow, with Chip & PIN you would need the final amount before authorizing the transaction so the tip would be added before just as your guide suggests. Chip & PIN terminals in Canada and Europe do just that. They present you with the tip screen (% or amount) before you enter your PIN & finish the transaction. For MSR, just like in restaurants today, they can change the amount after the initial authorization but they also often authorize for about 50% more (to allow for tip) and then do the capture once the server takes the bill from the table and "closes" it with the correct tip.

I can say from personal preference that I would do a double take if a device allowed me to put my card in and finished the transaction and then permitted a change to the charge amount. What is stopping the cashier from adding her own tip once I walk away.

As mentioned, the point at which the dialog for tip is presented (before or after CVM check) is a configuration option for the merchant. Keep in mind we are deploying a US solution first. We are also anticipating that in the US we will have signature as the primary CVM before PIN. From that perspective, our flow will should be a little less odd.

That said, in the true Chip & PIN solution, once you ask for tip after PIN entry you as the merchant are opening yourself up to higher rates (Card Not Present) as well assuming liability for chargebacks. I don't know why a merchant would want to do that but as a platform we have chosen that use-case as an option.

Thank you for the context.

The expected way to handle Chip + PIN transactions is that the final price is set before you enter your PIN. It is never changed after you put the PIN in - because at that point, it becomes a card-not-present transaction.

Some ATMs require you to take your card out before entering your PIN. Or are they using the magnetic strip?

They're caching the magnetic strip data.

In the USA you always key in the PIN after swiping/inserting/removing the card.

If you are using magnetic strip you're correct. For PIN & chip the PIN is sent to the card and verified by the card and the resulting "signature" is sent to the bank. The card has to be in for PIN entry.

An employee, above, said that it is for entering tip. Which would make more sense, but then the card would have to be inserted after the total amount I imagine but I can see how they would have a slightly different flow. Personally, I would want any terminal that I use to show me the final amount that I am going to pay before I put in my card. Lest I pay, walk away and the cashier adds her own tip.

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