Comment by ahknight | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ahknight | Hacker News Reader

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Similar story here: early age, 0 or 100, high tests and little completion. The difference is I've been programming for most of my life (I'm not exaggerating; I started at 7y). It's likely because I started so young that I find that's my hyper focus outlet, though I still find that every time I try to learn Java it feels so painful I break something and run away (though I know C, C++, Obj-C, Swift, Python, PHP, Perl, shell, and even some Forth). Don't get me wrong, I know exactly two people that like Java and everyone else says it's painful, but they can do it anyway. I simply cannot. My mind shuts off and boycotts the information until the topic changes. It's infuriating.

Having anything at all near me that supplies instant gratification (electronics, mainly) puts me in what I call "hunted mode". That is, I'm itching for something to switch my attention to and very easily distracted. When I remove such things and engage with the world (and turn off or DND my devices -- important) then I seem to enter "hunter mode" where I can put my focus where it needs to be and hold it.

So, of course I become a professional software developer, right?

Adderall lets me work. Turning shit off when I get home lets me live. Paper books let me read (ebooks for reference, though; I'm not a Luddite).

Which is to say: I'm with ya, and you're right about environmental sensory stimulants. But you're kind of wrong about it being a matter of self control. It is, but the problem is that you (we) lack the control of self-control. That's the nasty thing the article doesn't go into. This is an Executive Function disorder, a "cousin" disorder to things on the Autism scale (ever read a list of those symptoms and check off an uncomfortable few?). That's why we wind up medicated. We do need that dopamine to hang around to push through the daily administrivia.

Yet, the article was right that outside of city life this would be great. But I'm a city guy, so ... yeah.

My uncle is a psychiatrist, and he has a theory that the definition is more of a matrix than a spectrum. He says that what is often called attention deficit would better be described as intention surplus - you have more intention than your attention can handle. A lot of A.D.D. cases are confused by the fact that they can spend several hours hyperfocused on something, so it's not a lack of attention that's the problem, it's that there is a limited supply of attention which cannot keep up with one's attention.

Putting it this way opened my eyes to my own diagnosis (diagnosed A.D.D as a child).

If you can make your ADD work for you, then you should call it ADO: Attention Deficit Order.

Same thing goes for my OCO.

"intention surplus" interesting, this makes a lot of sense.

The article insinuates that the core problem is the higher base line of stimulus required for motivation.

How does Adderall fix this?

Do you feel mundane repetitive tasks are more rewarding now?

What about tasks that would feel great even without the medication? Do they overload your circuits then?

Am curious as to how the drug manifests itself in your day to day routine.

I was late diagnosed with ADHD. I used to be on Adderall for years. I'm now on a non-stimulant medication, as well as an anti-anxiety anti-depressant.

Adderall helped me in college. It helped me get every homework done, even if the homework was pointless.

I spent some time trying to switch medications, as I personally did not like feeling glued to whatever activity I was doing. I like having the choice to focus, or not focus.

I switched environments, where I could experiment with this new way of approaching learning and working. I don't mind iterative, mundane tasks, because at the end of the day and before I begin them, I try to think about why it's interesting, novel, and different, for me to perform this iteration of task. I try to think that the fact that I have gotten my mind to this state without dramatic intervention is as well novel, unique, and worthy of self praise.

In a world where I already felt distracted and slow, Adderall offers a quick fix. But I would have never built those parts of myself, of my mind, that can find novelty in what superficially appears to be 'boring'. I just try to change everything else in my control, to help myself see 'boring' in a different perspective. If I work in java at work on jsp pages, at home and during my 'web surfing time' at work, I teach myself about unikernals, clojure, the curry howard isomorphism - with serious intent, over long periods of time. And then I begin to see connections in the ordinary that are extraordinary.

As for nootropics, I'm trying to look for research in anything that uses language such as 'relaxing / calming' and 'focus'. I think there is a serious slant in literature that truly believes, and primes it's audience to believe stimulant -> better concentration. Stimulant -> temporary concentration. I am firmly confident that stimulants either prevent or override the creation of neural connections that are less explicit.

Regarding nootropics, gwern has an excellent writeup on different ones, and how he tested them http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics. You might already have seen it, in case it might be helpful to others.

Before I was medicated for inattentive ADD, sitting down to study was essentially impossible. I would sit down to read, and within a minute my mind would start to wander and it took an enormous amount of effort and mental energy to get my mind back to focusing. But once again I would lose my train of thought unintentionally and start day dreaming. I used to lock myself away from any distractions, but my mind was just not equipped to learn the way my high school and college required me to. I needed to learn and I wanted to learn but I didn't have the ability to.

After taking Adderall, my mind doesn't wander aimlessly and it doesn't take an enormous amount of effort sit still and study. I still need to take mental breaks every hour and use will power to get myself to sit down and learn, but the effort was just much less, making it a much easier process. I am naturally motivated and curious. But this is hindered by the fact that I can't naturally sit and learn. On Adderall all of a sudden I can focus, and my motivation and curiosity can let me successfully get things done.

As far as tasks that would feel good even without medication, video games for example, I had even more focus and could play for longer periods of time if I wanted to. But now all of a sudden playing video games didn't seem as attractive to me anymore, because there were other things I needed to get done (like study) which I always wanted to do but were too hard. When the threshold of effort required to do work successfully is lowered, it becomes much easier to stop myself from playing video games and actually get motivated and excited about learning and getting work done.

Sp3000 made a relevant comment in response to this but he may be hellbanned as it came up dead.

The article cites research into dopamine receptor issues in those with ADHD and I believe adderall works to inhibit reuptake so you have more dopamine in circulation than you would normally.

I can't speak for everyone but personally it is never a matter of "this feels rewarding and this doesn't". It's more being able to function vs. not being able to function. Without medication "I know I need to do these things, man I should really do these things, look at this list I made of things I need to do" which can spiral into what may be depression when the things don't get done, people get let down, etc... Whereas with medication you are just able to do what you need/want to do.

With unmanaged ADHD I have many ideas and desires that would be rewarding to complete but I am frequently just unable to perform.

It's exactly the same for me.

The article seems to be making a case that people with ADHD should find things to do with their life that don't conflict with their condition.

I think "we have the technology" to give people the ability to alter their brain chemistry to let them do things they wouldn't be able to otherwise, and having that choice available or those who want to take advantage of it is better than not having it.

It does not improve motivation past the first few weeks (the honeymoon phase). Once your body is used to it you have to still talk yourself into doing whatever it is you need to start. Or even better have a routine to get you started on things so you can do it on autopilot.

The only rewarding feeling that has manifested itself for me is having more pride in the code I write. Completing goals otherwise feels the same as before I medicated.

Without medication the best feeling was post exercise, but this feeling is and was short lived.

The feeling of the medication is totally transparent now. I do not feel any side effects, or feel anything that would suggest they are kicking in.

I take dexedrine (and not adderall) and was just recently diagnosed at 33. BUT..

I don't have to fight to learn. For the first time in my life i have a thought ( " I need to finish my homework. ") i walk over get my homework out and finish it in a single session. Before i would think about doing homework, put it off for hours, finally get frustrated enough with myself that i can force myself to do it, make tea and check my phone, have tea and sit down about an hour later then i had planned do ten minutes of work, lose interest, fight myself, get frustrated, and have to walk away with really only having done 10 minutes of work.

This last example applied to hobbies, work, watching TV, relaxing, to everything. i highly regret waiting but am now quite a bit happier.

I know it's not the same as pure Java, but I found that trying to build an Android App was a practical way of learning Java. I had an app I wanted to make, and having that as the goal kept me going through all the boring parts of learning a new language.

How intriguing! Does C# do it for you, or does it have the same effect as Java? Maybe it's the culture, not the language itself?

PS:

FORTH ?KNOW IF HONK! ELSE FORTH LEARN THEN

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