Gnome Foundation and Groupon product names – Updated | Hacker News Reader

Gnome Foundation and Groupon product names – Updated

engineering.groupon.com

112 pointsjohngd42 comments

Hmmm.... This doesn't seem to line up with what Gnome said [0]:

> It was almost inconceivable to us that Groupon, with over $2.5 billion in annual revenue, a full legal team and a huge engineering staff would not have heard of the GNOME project, found our trademark registration using a casual search, or even found our website, but we nevertheless got in touch with them and asked them to pick another name. Not only did Groupon refuse, but it has now filed even more trademark applications (the full list of applications they filed can be found here [1], here [2] and here). To use the GNOME name for a proprietary software product that is antithetical to the fundamental ideas of the GNOME community, the free software community and the GNU project is outrageous.

Yet Groupon says:

> We’ve been communicating with the Gnome Foundation for months to try to come to a mutually satisfactory resolution, including alternative branding options, and we’re happy to continue those conversations. And if we can’t come up with a resolution, we’ll be glad to look for another name.

If we take the Gnome post as fact it appears Groupon thought they could get away with this then when they saw the (potential) backlash they backed away from their position. This may not be the case but I'm much more inclined to believe Gnome over Groupon

[0] https://www.gnome.org/groupon/

[1] http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=86200190%0A86200193%0A8620...

[2] http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=86287930%0A86287935%0A8628...

[3] http://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=86441913%0A86441922%0A8644...

Either way Groupon made the right decision here imo

Yet I do not see Groupon apologising for their behaviour, which was evil.

I don't think you can characterize it as being evil. There's also no clear ulterior motive for pushing through with the name, and "capitalizing on the name recognition of the Gnome project" is not a valid hypothesis since that name doesn't mean anything for 99% of Groupon's customers.

It looks more like they were just being a typical stubborn corporation. Some product manager got really attached to the name and they tried to hang on to it as a matter of course, because they're massive and feel they don't have to budge to anything. In the end, they caved to negative publicity, as any company in their position would.

You don't say anything that's not exactly right, but you're still missing the point.

They had the opportunity to own up to their mistake and seek the goodwill of the community. They missed that chance. Perhaps not "evil", but certainly worth some continued indignation.

Evil was the point, I don't think I missed that. It seems to me your point is I failed to recognize how much indignation this caused, but that wasn't really within the scope of the comment I was replying to. And I'm not trying to debate whether continued indignation is warranted or not.

My suspicion is it'll blow over pretty quickly, though, if for no other reason than there are more pressing issues keeping most open source developers awake as opposed to an already resolved trademark dispute which never even went to court. This was a good day, wasn't it?

Whilst GNOME has not fully disclosed the information, which has been disgust for months at Board Meetings, I would stand by the evil comment. Groupon, the massive for profit organisation, made a conscious decision ("Not only did Groupon refuse ...")to basically say FU to GNOME. They then used their position as a major organisation to try and coerce them into an unacceptable situation("alternative branding options") which included filling more trademark applications.

I would, and do, call them bullies and bullies are evil.

I see your point, though I would still reserve the word for stuff that is at least an order of magnitude more troubling. Including this comment, I said so three times in different variations, and the fact that we're arguing over this word still means we probably can't arrive at a common definition of what constitutes "1.0 units of evil" which we all agree on.

Barring this common definition, I'd rather talk about the facts of what happened, or even useful speculation and opinions about it, than to discuss labels that have different meanings for every single person reading this.

It's getting a bit unproductive. I'm sorry to have entered this discussion now because it makes me sound like I'm defending behavior that I don't actually support.

They seemed to come to this decision only when it was realized that they had no way of winning the fight. Hardly worth congratulating for.

I wasn't congratulating. Just happy that this worked out in GNOMEs favor for obvious reasons.

It's not always about simple existence. I suspect they thought they could get away with doing something that's totally different -- but the reaction they saw way that their users wouldn't see it that way.

They knew it existed, but they didn't know how much of a backlash they would be. Hindsight is 20/20.

It's not surprising that people were confused:

> ...said Eric Lefkofsky, CEO. "When it's complete, Gnome will serve as an operating system for merchants to run their entire operation and enable them to create real-time promotions that bring customers into their business when they need them the most."

I can understand GNOME being upset that a product described by its CEO as "an operating system" would pick their already well established name.

It's like squatting on someones reserved parking and then trying to strike up a conversation on alternative parking options with them. The only reasonable answer is get the fuck off.

How is it that every time I see any article, blog post, whatever, about Groupon, including posts by Groupon themselves, I find myself feeling kinda like I need a shower? Some of their sliminess gets on me every time I come in contact with anything they do.

It takes incredible chutzpah (and not in a good way) to operate the way they operate. They wanted to trademark "Gnome" for a software product, and expected the GNOME project to just roll over and let it happen! It's as though no one else on the planet even exists or matters, in their estimation.

How is it that so many seemingly reputable investors are involved in this thing again? Groupon should have died on the vine six months into the story, but it didn't, and now we have to deal with their bullshit forever, I guess.

Yea, I was wondering where I had heard of Groupon before recently - I assumed that it was due to some of their shady business practices hitting the news - and realized that these were the same guys that sent a recruitment email about a junior Rails dev position to David Heinemeier Hansson.

Groupon lies. However the end result is good either way for GNOME and open source. Now the only question is why was the fastest up voted post in HN history which was Gnome vs Groupon in favor of Gnome moderated to the second page while this Groupon post is at the top of the front page with almost no votes!

Does someone at HN have stock in groupon or something? Either way it's time for a transparent Blockchain based HN/reddit. This moderator bias crap is bs.

> Either way it's time for a transparent Blockchain based HN/reddit.

I'm sure you could drum up something along with the group from comp.lang.lisp who are trying to write reddit back in lisp.

FWIW, Hacker News is written in arc, a variant of Lisp. So, there's that.

>Blockchain based HN/reddit. This moderator bias crap is bs.

Problem you'll run into is that storage space isn't free. And every single miner having a mirrored copy of HN wouldn't exactly burn though storage quickly, but wouldn't exactly be a very good way to create this transparency.

It doesn't have to be the Bitcoin blockchain and doesn't need to be mirrored on 100s of machines. As long as it is transparent, query/browsable and mirrored on a few machines for authenticity it will be enough to protect against moderators having too much unscrupulous biased money/profit based power.

I want to see any emails before I determine that they were lying. There's no reason to assume bad faith.

Except they chose to use the name Gnome which was already being used which is a bad faith move. There's no possible way they didn't know about Gnome - there's photographs of at least one Groupon employee who was also involved in Gnome.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with using a name someone is already using. The issue is whether or not the subsequent user's use would cause confusion in the prior user's markets. Heck, the GNOME Foundation themselves are using a name that was already being used. The Lake County Nursery in Perry, Ohio, registered Gnome as a trademark in 1980, and has used it continuously ever since.

The Lake County Nursery's use is in class 031 (Natural agricultural products), and within that class it is in the area of plants.

GNOME Foundation's use is in these classes and areas within those classes:

IC 009 (Electrical and scientific apparatus):

• downloadable computer software tools and libraries used for the development of other software applications

• downloadable computer software development tools

• downloadable computer software for creating and managing a computer desktop

• downloadable computer software for use as a graphical user interface

• downloadable computer software for word processing, database management, and use as a spreadsheet

IC 042 (Computer, scientific & legal):

• computer software development

• computer software design

• computer programming for others

• technical consulting services in the field of computer software licensing of intellectual property

It's pretty clear that none of those are likely to cause confusion in Lake County Nursery's market, so their using a name already in use was fine.

Here are the classes and areas that Groupon was trying to claim the mark for. They include several areas in the same classes GNOME's are in, so concern on the part of the GNOME Foundation is certainly warranted. On the other hand, trademark classes are very broad (e.g., "Electrical and scientific apparatus"), and Groupon's areas within these classes are fairly far from GNOME's areas, so I can see them actually believing that they were far enough apart to not cause confusion. If it went to a hearing, I could see it going either way.

IC 009 (Electrical and scientific apparatus):

• computer hardware and software for processing point of sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, analyzing merchant transactions, and for evaluating and managing information on business performance and customers

• computer application software for mobile phones, smart phones, PC tablets, and electronic tablets for processing point of sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, analyzing merchant transactions, and for evaluating and managing information on business performance and customers

• computer software and hardware that enables users to send and receive pricing, financial transaction, customer information, and payment processing information directly to and from a mobile device and a cloud-based server

• downloadable mobile computer apparatus software applications that enables users to send and receive pricing, financial transaction and payment processing information directly to and from a mobile device and a cloud-based server

• computer hardware, namely, hand-held computing devices in the nature of credit card processing units consisting of electronic machines for reading credits cards, tablet computers for point of sale transactions, payment calculating machines, and magnetic coded card readers and the software used to operate the aforementioned computer hardware

• contact management software used to organize and retrieve customer contact information

• electronic commerce and transaction application software that allows users to engage in electronic business transactions via a global computer network

• printer software for operating printers and printing. accounting software used to track and present financial information relating to sales

• schedule management software used to organize and retrieve scheduling information

• payment systems and devices, namely, electronic card readers, payment calculating machines, magnetic coded card readers, credit card processing units consisting of electronic machines for reading credits cards, point of sale terminals, and multi-functional computer hardware with payment function

• computer hardware, namely, electronic card readers for electronically readable cards

• tablet stands

IC 035 (Advertising and business):

• providing marketplace information, namely, commercial information on merchants, customers, consumer products, and business events and services

• providing business information in the field of point of sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, merchant transactions, business performance, and customers

• providing a website featuring ratings, reviews and recommendations on products and services offered by merchants, consumer products, business events and services, and business information related to sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, merchant transactions, business performance, and customers

• business planning and management for marketing, promoting or advertising the goods and services of others

• marketing, promotional marketing, and advertising services

• administration of a customer loyalty reward program to promote the retail services of others for participants to obtain benefits from purchases of a company's goods and services

• appointment scheduling services

IC 042 (Computer, scientific & legal):

• providing use of cloud-based non-downloadable software for processing point of sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, analyzing merchant transactions, and for evaluating and managing information on business performance and customers

• providing temporary use of non-downloadable software that enables users to send and receive pricing, financial transaction, customer information, and payment processing information directly to and from a mobile device and a cloud-based server

• software as a service (SAAS) services featuring software that enables users to send and receive pricing, financial transaction, customer information, and payment processing information directly to and from a mobile device and a cloud-based server

• providing use of cloud-based non-downloadable software for payment services, merchant analytics, and for evaluating and managing information on business performance and customers

• technical support services, namely, troubleshooting in the nature of diagnosing computer hardware problems and troubleshooting of computer software problems

• installation and maintenance services for computer software for processing point of sale transactions, payment transactions, voucher redemption, appointment scheduling, customer relationship management, customer location detection and awareness, inventory management, analyzing merchant transactions, and for evaluating and managing information on business performance and customers

www.gnome.org is the first result in google when searching gnome.

It takes extraordinary amounts of willful ignorance to not find the existence of gnome.org

If their product was something marginally connected to IT I would have assumed good faith either.

If tomorrow Elon says - the new Tesla Gnome - the world's first electric sport bike, there will be no backlash.

agree. Also it's easy to say - oh, ok we'll change the name of the product than - after bad words starts to flood from anywhere.

From the linked post:

> UPDATE: After additional conversations with the open source community and the Gnome Foundation, we have decided to abandon our pending trademark applications for “Gnome.” We will choose a new name for our product going forward.

In the words of Winston Churchill, more or less:

Groupon will always do the right thing... but only after everything else fails.

As a show of good faith, Groupon should write the Gnome Foundation a check for the remaining $12k (currently at $68k)

It would be a tax write off for them either way, so a huge PR win, and a small tax win.

Maybe this is actually a really sneaky fundraiser for GNOME, sponsored by Groupon.

"There is some recent confusion" is such a wonderful euphemism.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8590335

Thank you. We missed that one.

New trademark under consideration... KDE :)

Interestingly, their largest publicity bump since July was largely negative, at least among those that that would read tech news: http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=groupon

Considering that their <name-TBD> point-of-sale platform was largely targeted at small businesses that assumingly would follow this type of news, I am curious how long it takes for them to rebrand this product and how long they wait to roll it out... if at all.

"We love open source at Groupon. We have open sourced a number of projects on Groupon github."

I would have expected some reference to how crucial open source has been, and continues to be, to Groupon's ability to function as a modern internet business. Not a small omission.

I hope they rename it to "Washington Redskins".

Gnome made more than 60k from this, while Groupon declined their plans. Flawless victory?

IANAL but I think it will be nightmare for their accountants.

There should be some safeguards in the law that you cannot easily re purpose solicited donations for a cause.

IAANAL but I'm pretty sure the way it works in the US is that donations go to the organization and can be used for any purpose, even if they were originally solicited for a specific purpose.

It's sad that this was the first time I donated to GNOME given how much I've used their software in the past. I certainly don't regret the donation regardless of how it is used.

The GNOME folks considered that in their solicitation. From <http://gnome.org/groupon/>:

    If we are able to defend the mark without spending
    this amount, we will use the remaining funds to
    bolster and improve GNOME.

I donated, and I'm pleased that they exhibited such forethought and will still be able to make good use of the funds.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com