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Comment by joezydeco | Hacker News Reader

Here's how the middle school transition works in my particular district. Use it as a data point:

1) Elementary schools are K-5, Middle schools are 6-8.

2) Elementary schools are local to the neighborhood and serve about 300-400 students.

3) A middle school consolidates 4-5 elementaries.

4) Because of the consolidation, the middle school tends to be farther away. A lot of kids are bussed to school. This can take up to 45 minutes for some kids.

5) Elementary begins at 9:00 a.m. Middle begins at 8:00am.

So, a 5th grader that was starting his day at 9am (and could walk to school) becomes a sixth grader that has to be ready for the bus at 7am, enduring a 40 minute ride with peers that can be significantly older than him.

Nobody believes this is an impact on attitude and performance? This age is hard enough as it is and we suddenly throw kids into a mix like this with a heavily modified sleep schedule on top of it.

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For me, elementary started at 9AM, while middle and high schools started at 7:30AM. The buses would arrive at school a good half an hour before school started (why, I could not tell you), so in practice you had to be up before 6AM to catch the bus (maybe a bit later if you were less meticulous than I was). And even when you were old enough to drive a car, you couldn't get that much more sleep out of it. I was pretty much continually sleep deprived from 12-18 because of this.

The ironic thing is, as an elementary schooler, I would frequently wake up much earlier than I needed to be to watch cartoons/play video games/read/do homework/etc. It was only after hitting puberty that I actually needed the extra sleep time, and that's exactly when they hit you with the schedule change. And people wonder why teenagers are so grumpy these days.

As far as I can tell, the reasoning behind this is "parents drive their elementary school-aged kids to school and need the extra time." The vast majority of kids, myself included, rode the bus from kindergarten onwards, so I guess this is just another case where the upper crust got to fuck everyone else over for the sake of their own convenience.

EDIT: The other half was the school-run extracurriculars that started in middle school. I remember an attempt to start our high school later being shot down; the athletes didn't want to stay any later than they already were, and the sports coaches didn't want to lose any practice time. Clearly football is more important than the health and education of the average student.

> 5) Elementary begins at 9:00 a.m. Middle begins at 8:00am.

Wait, what? What places have older kids start school earlier? Why would you do that?

Almost every 7 year old I've ever known naturally woke up at the crack of dawn. Almost every 16 year old I've ever known would sleep till noon if you let them.

My school district had older kids start school later (7:45 for elementary, 8:30 for middle, 9:15 for high), and that seems fairly sensible.

Most schools do this. I once heard it's to make room for sports after school, as jr. varsity and varsity teams start to become a big deal.

I think your district is the exception. In mine (Fairfax County, Virginia), high school started at 7:20 am, and it was brutal. I don't recall the exact time middle and elementary school started, but middle was later, and elementary was last. One benefit was that the same buses could be used for high school, middle and elementary, saving money.

Fairfax apparently recently changed (or will change) for high school to start at 8 am. That's still earlier than I think is civilized, but it's an improvement. (One that I would have welcomed as a high school student.)

Where I live, elementary starts at 8, middle starts at 9, and high school starts at the wonderful time of 7:30. The transition from middle school to high school was especially painful. I wish we used the times your district used; they make so much more sense than ours.

From what I've seen is it is pretty random who starts earlier in each school district. One district in my home town had younger kids start earlier and another had older kids start earlier. Both districts have after school activities and sports.

> Why would you do that?

There is a surprisingly persistent belief that waking up (and going to bed) early is more moral. That it's somehow related to responsibility, work ethic, strength of character, etc.

Proposals to start school later are often dismissed on the basis that students are just whining about the character-building that they ought to be subjected to.

Staying out late and sleeping in are both signifiers of irresponsibility/laziness and things that parents and parent-like figures discourage. Despite the fact that, so long as you are doing both at the same time, you're still getting adequate sleep and probably just as healthy (if not healthier).

The change in sleep schedule is killer. You forgot to mention that the same trend (earlier start, further away) also applies to the transition to High School. I remember having to wake up around 6 AM and getting on the bus around 6:45 to get to school before classes started at 7:10. Immediately after graduating high school I reverted back to much more "normal" sleep schedule (go to sleep ~1 AM, wake up ~9 AM).

classes start at 0710!? what on earth do you do all day?

The (school) day generally ends around 3p. Then you have sports practice or rehearsal for 3ish hours and 5ish hours for dinner with family and homework.

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