Comment by mrjatx | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mrjatx | Hacker News Reader

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It is absolutely ridiculous to be uncomfortable with managers seeing employee communications. First off, any time you log in to a machine at most corporations you're told that ALL network activities are monitored. It's not a joke. They are monitored. Every packet you send out and every packet you receive CAN BE RETRIEVED. This isn't new. I'm 30 and have seen this since I was in high school. I'm sure older folk have seen it for even longer.

Next off, you are owed NO privacy on services that your company is paying for for interoffice communication. You never have been. The fact that people bitched and moaned over Hipchat allowing history to be viewed is just ignorant and stupid.

You know why managers have the ability to view these things? Harassment. Sexual, physical, altercations, etc. If your company has more than 5 people these things WILL come up and the INABILITY to retrieve this data is BAD.

We have ALWAYS been able to retrieve this data via XMPP (Openfire), MSOffice Communicator/Lync, etc.

This is NOT some mind blowing new development.

This kind of monitoring may be normal in BigCorps but it's definitely not part of startup culture.

I'm also irritated by the mindset that considers this kind of institutionalized snooping a good thing ("INABILITY to retrieve this data is BAD").

I've been a network administrator and had control of everything.

That did NOT mean that I was actively viewing everything and sitting in a tower somewhere cackling at all of the deep dirty news I had. I had to pull data a handful of times during lawsuits or sexual harassment complaints.

You should not be delving into deep personal/sexual conversations on any work tool without having in the back of your mind that it may come up at some point, whether you're at a startup or not. I'm on my 3rd startup and while I know nobody has been monitoring (because I pay for the tools) I still keep the tools somewhat professional. To the point that I couldn't care less if someone looked into my conversations. If we're going to bitch about that, then the fact that my data is on some unknown server at Hipchat is FAR more worrisome to me than my COO looking at my conversations.

You SHOULD trust your employees and if you don't trust one replace them. You should also TRUST your management to not spy on you. But you should also assume that they have the ability, if not, you're daft.

this kind of monitoring is often required by law. when the shit hits the fan, it is bad to not be able to get all the data on _company_ channels. But, if you want to own your communication, use _your_ cell phone.

I know what you describe is how it has been at some companies, but that is not how I think it ought to be. While I am at work, it is my opinion that I am not only owed privacy, I think it should be the default expectation (except for exceptional legal circumstances, of course). I would be hesitant to work at any place which does not share my values regarding these types of things, simply because it demonstrates a lack of trust and lack of autonomy within the organization.

Also legally speaking, a company is not allowed to listen in on/record phone calls I make on a company phone and I doubt they are allowed to open snail mail addressed to me. Thus my expectations of privacy is not something inconsistent with the status quo.

Your last point is completely untrue. I've programmed Asterisk systems for large call centers that specifically had supervisor modes where the supervisor could monitor calls to make sure employees were keeping customer service up to par. If this had been illegal the state Workforce Commission would have had a field day each time an unfair termination case came up.

I'm going to assume that's purely state based, but it definitely is legal in some jurisdictions. I'd imagine moreso than not.

I agree that I don't want to work somewhere where you're monitored. I think we'll all agree to that.

But I've actually saved someones skin before by providing logs when a sexual harassment lawsuit came up and an employee was fired unjustly (manager fired them, but his advances were blatant in the logs).

It protects the employee if you use the communications properly.

Wiretap laws vary state-by-state, but most require at least one party to consent to a wiretap. Some require both parties to consent, which means turning on call recording is a felony in some states, unless both parties are aware. (Which is probably why every call center starts with "This call may be recorded...").

You consented in your employment contract.

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