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Comment by rtpg | Hacker News Reader

>Williams countered that Apple has tracked the weekly hours of over one million workers within its supply chain, and that its suppliers have achieved an average of 93 per cent compliance with the 60-hour workweek limit this year.

60 hour workweeks... plus "93% compliance" is not exactly reassuring.

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It would be nice to compare those numbers to that of other companies or organizations.

But even if you stay strictly with US companies, is it possible to find the compliance rate for Microsoft, Google, Twitter, Red Hat, etc., much less the various game studios known for overworking their employees?

A 60 hour work week for wage laborers should not be baseline in any country in 2014. Apple is doing what they can to exploit these workers in a PC fashion.

* as any other company that outsources manufacturing.

So should we not also look down on those companies? Why do we give companies a pass to exploit workers because other companies do as well?

I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option. IMO, when it comes to exploitation pay, working conditions, and irregular work schedules can be far more exploitive than simple hours worked.

Also, dorm style housing next to a factory dramatically cut down on commute times which changes the work life balance equation. It's much like a 50 hour work week with a 1 hour commute which is fairly common in the US.

PS: IMO the US trucking industry is probably more expletive than most Chinese factory's. The hours are often comparable but the risk of death is much higher. And the industry often increases peoples risk of death for just a little more profit.

> I don't know if a 60 hour work week counts as exploitation. If you options are 400$/month and 40 hour weeks or 600$ a month and 60 hour weeks a lot of people are going to chose the second option.

And that is why it is exploitation: They are in a position where they don't realistically have a choice, and hence don't realistically have power to negotiate higher salaries for more reasonable hours.

This is the basis for e.g. EU working time regulations that makes 60 hour work weeks illegal within the EU with few exceptions.

Bear in mind that the salary these workers get is probably less than half that. Last year, according to the Daily Mail (yeah...), they were being paid £180 ($300) per month [0]. The salary these workers get is a small percentage of the retail price of these devices, it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary and provide ethical working conditions.

[0] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103798/Revealed-Ins...

> it's not like Apple can't afford to pay them a decent salary

Well, Apple doesn't pay them any salary at all—they're not Apple employees.

Yes but they are deeply offended , if they're not their employees is not their problem, why feel offended? .

I get offended by plenty of things outside my direct sphere of influence, that aren't my problem. Most of them, I can't do anything about. But it's still upsetting.

Of course, but naming only Apple is misleading.

however nothing should prevent workers from performing a 60 hour work week should they choose.

The problem there is preventing coercion. I've heard a number of stories of people working at startups who get in trouble for "not being a team player" or "lacking dedication" because they don't want to work super-long hours.

That'd be great assuming both sides held equal power.

Both sides don't hold equal power, which is the reason it took nearly a century of demonstrations, strikes and violent confrontations to get down from 60 hours+ work weeks to ~40 (EDIT: in the US and Europe)

I think your argument equates to "Everyone else is doing it mom, why can't I?". It was as much bullshit when you were a kid as it is now.

Well, not really. http://xkcd.com/1170/

Is this reddit?

My argument is as to how angry I should be specifically towards Apple, vs. towards the industry as a whole, the BBC, and us as people, and to inform my decisions on how to improve international working conditions. (Admittedly, that's low on my list.)

If Apple's claim is correct, and "no other company [does] as much as Apple does to ensure fair and safe working conditions, to discover and investigate problems, to fix and follow through when issues arise, and to provide transparency into the operations of our suppliers," then the solution is to push for a change to the laws.

If Apple's claim is completely inverted, and everyone else requires a maximum 40 hour work week with a livable wage, with 100% compliance, then it's time I boycott Apple.

On the third hand, if no one else can report any numbers like this, then attacking Apple for being the first to be transparent about these numbers means that other companies are less likely to publish, or even track, these numbers, because the tall poppies are cut down first. If so, then the BBC is making things worse by attacking Apple for being the only one to be so honest. (This is the one I happen to believe, but have little evidence for.)

On the fourth hand, if Apple is the middle of the pack, then certainly it could be an "Everyone else is doing it" arguments. Except that Apple highlights how they don't think they are in the middle of the pack, and stress why they think that, for example, working with the Indonesian tin mining industry is overall better than not sourcing Indonesian tin.

Of the alternatives, I don't see why you thought I was suggesting the one least supported by the evidence.

It's worse.

The documentary shows how Foxconn and Pegatron fake payroll slips so that long hours don't show up.

93% compliance is rubbish. Workers are forced to sign forms saying they consent to night shifts and overtime, when in fact overtime is mandatory.

Apple's required reporting is nothing more than window-dressing; lipstick on a pig.

Apple's release schedule of one big yearly event and 10 million units ready to ship on day 1 must bear some of the blame. Near impossible demands are being placed on manufacturers desperate to keep a lucrative contract, who in turn drive workers like slaves.

While admittedly, I know nothing about Apple's internal policies and how it tracks these workers and the hours they're working, I wonder how real those numbers are. What I see often (very often) is that people see data and they take the numbers at face value. Could it possibly be that in order to appease Apple, the suppliers are cooking the books on the hours their employees are working? Obviously, in terms of profit margins, they want to squeeze out every penny of labor they can.

What type of data integrity system does Apple have set up to make sure that these are truly the case? With 1 million workers and multiple companies (and all the suppliers) does Apple truly have an independent employee (unaffected by any pressure from factory management) at every factory to watch over the labor standards? I kind of doubt it.

But yes, 60 hour work weeks, how noble of Apple. "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Personally, this really does make me rethink buying an Apple product.

It should make you rethink buying any electronic product whatsoever, since Apple's supply-chain audits are, though insufficient, by far the most thorough of any company (since they face the most scrutiny).

Rather, I would say, "it should make me rethink buying any electronic product _not manufactured in the US or other developed world countries that have much higher, stricter standards on labor conditions_..."

Not everything is manufactured in China (though I certainly don't know of any laptops not made in China, and only a select few phones.)

edit: oh, and also, my main point was "how good are those audits?"

The audits are probably pretty bad, but also probably better than the audits that less scrutinized companies do.

What consumer electronics products are manufactured in the US... not counting "final assembly" in the US where the PCBs come in fully populated from China and are screwed into the enclosure in the US?

Yes, the suppliers are faking the hours. They show this in the film.

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> In an email to around 5,000 staff across the UK, Apple senior vice president of operations Jeff Williams said both himself and the chief executive were "deeply offended by the suggestion that Apple would break a promise to the workers in our supply chain or mislead our customers in any way".

Well, that makes 7% being lied to. Did I understand this correctly?

Clearly Tim Cook and senior management are in a bind.

They keep telling people they're geniuses ('only Apple could do this') and industry leaders in environmental practices.

The BBC film has shown this to be false so either Tim Cook is a pathological liar or he doesn't have a clue what goes on in the supply chain. Meaning he's not the genius the fawning press like to make him out to be.

The best quote in the film is when an Indonesian supplier is asked what he thinks of Apple's envieonmental policy. His response: "Apple bullshit. Bullshit Apple.". The subtitles make this an instant internet meme.

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