The Story of Schiit Audio (2014)
head-fi.org
head-fi.org
https://mega.co.nz/#!RU0SVD5I!9Dn7tK_tXDvjoRCfJ7vV5JFn43-lu1...
with Jason's blessing:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of...
?? You call yourselves Schiit Audio but you can't bring yourself to write "fuck"??
Can anyone explain to my if this [1] is something more than snakeoil?
I suspect that the newer cheap amps such as the Vali and Magni 2 have fixed these issues.
I can absolutely tell the details in certain albums using the new setup. Hearing the difference between FLAC/ALE and something encoded at 320bps or higher is really dependent on the material though.
The power issue is definitely legitimate. USB power supplies are noisy and the noise can bleed to analog outputs if the soundcard has poor power supply noise rejection - I once built a USB-powered soundcard on the at90usb162 microcontroller and it produced a lot of background noise which was annoingly correlated with CPU activity. It went away when I inserted a 3.3V stabiliser between the USB power rail and the MCU, making it run from this 3.3V power. Reportedly, some commercial devices have similar issues (no links, but googling "USB DAC scrolling noise" may be a good starting point).
OTOH, I'm not sure about the importance of reclocking. USB audio cards synchronize their DAC clocks to USB host clock and hence any USB clock jitter induces DAC clock jitter which causes some amount of distortion, but I know of nobody who verified whether this is important in real world scenarios.
IIRC, clock jitter caused some real problems with SPDIF DACs back in 1980s and some people still feel more comfortable using "high-precision clocks".
1. Those that make clearly audible and measurable differences. Speakers, headphones, and upgrading from total rock-bottom near-broken electronics.
2. Those that make measurable differences that probably aren't audible. Various super-low distortion figures on amps and DACs, or going from 320kbps MP3 to FLAC. Almust certainly not detectable by human ears, but instruments can see a real, measurable improvement.
3. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are not audible. These are obviously worthless and snake oil.
4. Those that make unmeasurable differences that are audible. These are either magic (none that I've seen so far), reveal limits to our previous understanding of audio measurement (these probably have existed at some point, but I'm skeptical that any current products qualify), or are actually #3 in disguise.
I think the worst you can say about Schiit is that their stuff falls into #2 -- measurably, but not audibly, an improvement over some other thing -- and since they relentlessly refuse to make official claims about the audible properties of their products, I think that puts them into solid respectability as an audio company. The worst you can accuse them of, really, is unnecessary metaphorical gold-plating.
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Sonic benefits? That’s a lot of hoo-ha!
You’re right. There’s no reason this should make any system sound better.
Although we can measure the difference in USB power supply noise, it really
shouldn’t matter. Despite this, some listeners have said that there are sonic
benefits from using Wyrd. Us, we remain Swiss on the matter—we don’t do the
hard sell by promising sonic nirvana.
Are you saying I need to get this thing if I have a USB DAC?
Nope, not at all. Most USB DACs work just fine when running on computer power,
without any hitches, glitches, or strange noises. However, if you have USB power
problems, this is a great way to eliminate them. Especially if it’s a USB-powered
DAC.
Well, I could just buy a $20 powered hub if I’m having USB port power
management problems, right?
Yep you can, and yep, that would solve that problem.
There's plenty of snake oil to go around in the audiophile community, but Schiit has always seemed to be especially forthright about what their products can and can't do.
(Disclaimer: I own a fair amount of Schiit gear and am a very satisfied customer, so I'm definitely biased positively towards the company)
1. http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/banned-at-head-fi.html
Early versions of the product came without a power relay, with the implication being you should have the volume pot all the way down, and unplug your headphones before ever turning the amp on or off. That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment, which both Stoddard and Moffat came from. Not so much in the market that they were targeting with the Asgard.
Since then, they've added a relay to all of their amps that need one, and have offered to add one to any amp that was sold prior to this for free.
Stoddard goes over the incident with the Schiit side of the story at http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of...
NWAvGuy wasn't actually banned for his interactions with Schiit, but due to the very strict advertising rules at Head-Fi. http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thre...
The Asgard never actually permanently damaged or destroyed any headphones. The Schiit Lyr, however, did kill a $1.5k pair of Ultrasones Ed 8s, but this was due to an actual defect with a specific unit. Schiit replaced the Ultrasone and the Lyr for the owner.
No it's not, that's called bad design. Unless high-end now stands for "poorly designed gear sold for 10 times what they're worth".
Why? Because you are amplifying the turn on signal from the source or preamp.
Every time you have ever turned audio equipment on and heard that thump or pop, you are hearing the same phenomenon that ran the risk of damaging headphones left plugged in. It just so happens in most cases the amount of power involved isn't significant, but it does become so once you enter the realm of high powered amplifiers.
There's nothing inherently wrong about a design that doesn't include a muting relay because it is supposed to be understood how the device is operated, in the same way there's nothing inherently wrong about a car design that doesn't lock the gas tank while the car is online and running - you are supposed to know you shouldn't fill up your gas tank while the vehicle is on, and if you do so, there are risks. (Yes, sparks from the engine compartment of running cars can and do cause fires while refueling, albeit rarely)
Turning down the volume will do nothing, you have to remove the load and in many cases (speakers) that's infeasible. Not to mention something like a brownout/power loss could end up damaging the transducer anyway.
Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.
I'm aware of this - you'll notice I mentioned the volume control specifically for the Schiit gear, and not preamps or power amps in general. If you're using separate preamps and amps, then yes, turning down the volume on the preamp isn't going to matter. With almost all headphone setups, you are doing all volume control on the amp though, and none on the dac - it's pretty rare for there to be a dedicated preamp in the chain when dealing with computer -> headphones.
>Turning down the volume will do nothing
Again, specifically referring to the Schiit gear here, with the volume control details being specifically from them. Sorry if there was confusion and it seemed as if I was saying this in general.
>Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.
Plenty of the best gear out there will include power up sequence instructions - Amps being last on, first off, is something that has been pretty standard for decades. Like James Bongiorno said, even if a muting relay is installed, why tempt fate for no real gain? I'm sure I've got Cary and Audio Research manuals around somewhere with their power up sequences printed in them - are you going to accuse them of shoddy design as well?
My issue isn't with the relays - I'd love it if everything came with one. I don't think there's a downside to having them. (Though habit will keep me using the same power sequence I've been using for forever)
My issue is you've decided that anything that lacks said muting relay is poorly designed or not worth the price:
>No it's not, that's called bad design. Unless high-end now stands for "poorly designed gear sold for 10 times what they're worth"
It's audio equipment. Shouldn't the ultimate judgment on the quality of design be how it actually functions in it's intended purpose, and not whether or not it's the most convenient? Companies have been selling great sounding gear (that measures well) and lasts decades that lack a relay. I simply can't agree that lacking an optional piece that exists only to protect someone from something that they can perform manually overrides every other aspect of the product's design and makes it a poorly designed product.
I would argue that there is something wrong with amps / pre-amps which pop when turned on: it's sloppy design which doesn't even save much cost, and the risk is huge for end-users. Humans make mistakes. I don't think anyone would propose that a checklist be used every time you want to turn on your hi-fi because some EE (or very likely some Chinese ODM) wanted to save a few wires and a few cents.
But at the same time, I'm not willing to dismiss a product just because it lacks an optional feature that would have made it more convenient for me. I'm not going to say something is poorly designed and not worth the cost if every other thing it is meant to do, it does well. I'm more concerned with the core features of the product than added niceties.
My only issues were the idea that this was something that wasn't standard fare (since it is, though the publicity related to this incident has caused quite a few manufacturers to switch to including relays on everything - which I'm perfectly okay with!) and that it is somehow damning to the product design on the whole.
If I buy a Lotus Elise, there's a lot of nice functionality that probably wouldn't cost much to implement that I could find on cheaper cars that I'll be missing out on - but those weren't things I was looking for when I purchased the Elise.
If you drive an armored car, then you wouldn't want the doors to automatically unlock whenever you put it in park. An ICE agent was killed three years ago in Mexico because of this feature.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/armored-suv...
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I've worked in concert halls with half-million-dollar sound systems. You don't flip the power on upstream devices (DSPs, boards, etc.) while the amplifiers are powered on.
In nice, modern installs the system integrator will usually have installed a sequencer. You turn a key and what is essentially a glorified rackmount power strip emits a series of clicks as relays on a timer power on sections of the rack in a safe order. Otherwise it is up to the engineer to start up and shut down according to the correct procedure. A mistake will not necessarily damage equipment, but you will hear it pop - which may be anywhere from subtle to deafening. It is a dumb - and not unheard of - way to blow a speaker.
This is becoming less of an issue as digital audio networking (Dante, etc.) takes hold - there may be no analog connections between the mic itself and the amplifier - but it is absolutely standard with analog interconnections.
And Al Capone was nabbed for tax invasion. If they want to lock you up, they will.
nwavguy was specifically told to stop advertising in the manner he was, and he didn't. Plenty of other people have gotten the same PM from jude.
It wasn't his posts. Yesterday, he sent a hostile, unsolicited private message to one of our moderators that was forwarded to me. Among other things, in that message he brought up his attorney, and I have no patience for those who resort to what several moderators (myself included) interpreted as a legal threat (however veiled) as a bullying tactic.
For that, it's at least a tentative ban for him. And that's as much as I'll say about it, because we generally do not discuss bans publicly.
What he took exception to was my request that
(a) he remove the link to his blog from his signature, and
(b) that he refrain from linking to his blog frequently.
When he was asked these things, he took great exception to
the request; and, not surprisingly, even more so when the
links were removed. What he doesn't post
(and what I have the messages to prove, as I'm sure does he)
is that I told him he was more than welcome to post his
information here, instead of posting teasers here and
then linking to his site to finish. I told him at some
point he might be able to do that here; but, again, not
before he had shown that one of his primary reasons for
being here wasn't to redirect to his blog.Schiit products are battle-tested, high quality and high-value. You can tell the company is run by people who care about what they do.
If you want to provide cleaner power to a USB device, you provide it with an external power supply. Since DACs (or ADCs for audio input) have analog sections, you have to deliver power that meets those specifications.
You might also choose to provide filtering on the USB signal lines if your USB device's circuitry is susceptible to digital noise. USB signals are digital (approximately square waves) which contain harmonics that aren't needed to successfully decode the signal on the receiving end. Filter those out as well as high-frequency transients caused by other devices in the computer.
CAVEAT: I know nothing about the Schiit device.
The best line from this factory tour at SME [0], a maker of high precision audio [1] is, 'we make our own screws'. [2]
[0] History of SME, http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [1] http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/History-1307.shtml [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2xQkexHT-M
"Chapter 6: The First Order Is…For Something We’re Not Selling"
...I'll at least be reading one chapter :)
Do you seriously make your stuff in the USA?
Yep. We worked long and hard to get our designs and
chassis so they could be assembled by first-world labor
for prices similar to the Chinese. ...
But wouldn’t it be cheaper doing it in China?
Maybe. But we’re not going to find out.
Well, hell, all your parts are probably Chinese anyway,
right? Um, no. The majority of our parts, on a total
cost basis, come from right here in the USA, from
companies manufacturing their products in the USA. ...
Be memorable—this isn’t about getting everyone to like you,
this is about getting some people to love you.
But this is still an instance of taking the low road. We all live on the same planet, and commercial jingoism isn't the way forward.
Edit: if you "aren't sure if you consider it insulting," try reversing the roles. Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible. How do you suppose that will play in Peoria?
This site seems to be trying to be the next Digg.
> Imagine a Chinese company that brags about how they avoid using parts and labor from the US whenever possible.
chinese military grade stuff?
yes, i am the entire website you have interacted with for years to attain ~5k of karma.
anything made within those restrictions has a high chance of being made by capable people and as such would be a positive indicator for a buyer such as me.
i gave the military grade stuff as an example of something made within those restrictions by capable people.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1322155944_iphone_back.jpg
If Peoria had largely created an industry based on creating things at the absolute cheapest price point and gained a reputation for making sacrifices in quality to do so, I feel like they wouldn't really have a lot of room to complain.