Comment by vaksel | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vaksel | Hacker News Reader

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We don't have a high demand, we have 10% unemployment, we don't need more people to take away jobs. This country is a country for Americans first, once we take care of our own, then we can start inviting more people to fill the demand.

Yes they do shit work for $8 an hour...but does that mean that you need to turn high paying professions into "shit work" just because the companies want to save a buck? Programming should not be an $8/hour job, no matter what kind of language you are using. Hell have you even read some of the code written by these guys? Calling it garbage would be insulting to garbage.

Oh please, lower wages for skilled labor doesn't mean squat for a company's bottom line. When you are making billions, paying a few less million in wages won't change anything.

Wages have ALREADY dropped to $10 an hour. Go hit up craigslist, PLENTY of companies looking for software developers with 5 years experience, and offering $10 an hour. And the screwed up thing, is that they'll get it. Some programmer, who's been out of work for a year or two, because the market is crappy, will do the job because he has to put food on the table. That is if he is lucky, because he'll have to compete with 100 other people for the position.

This is America, we need to take care of our own first, before we decide to help the rest. When the times are good noone cares about immigrants, but when you see people being laid off left and right to be replaced by incompetent immigrants...then it's time to put the foot down.

If you think increasing the # of people won't change anything you are smoking crack.

Why are they stupid? Are we blocking all immigrants? No, we are letting in the 65K like you mentioned. That just means that we are getting the cream of the crop. Why do you want to lower the quality? You only lower the restrictions when you are in need of more people. That is not the case now.

Hey I'm an immigrant myself, first generation too, and as someone who went through the process, I want STRICTER control on immigration. We came during the time when America needed new talent. That's not the case now. We are over capacity. Sorry, the country is full...come back when we recover.

So you are one of those who says "Please close the door right after I get in". "We came during the time when America needed new talent."...well, the kind of talent that got in is not cutting it right now. May be we need a new crop of immigrants to stir up the economy? or the kind of wage drops that you hate will cause the profitability of these companies to go up and stir the economy.

We have 10% unemployment. Are you telling not one of those people cuts it for the job?

When times are good, fine let everyone in. But when people end up unemployed for 2-3 years at a time, letting more people to expand the # of unemployed is just plain stupid.

How will these immigrants stir up the economy? They don't come here with a job like H1B Visa guys, they come here penniless, with crappy English and no connections.

Yeah they'll stir up the economy alright, by adding more unemployed, desperate people willing to work for nothing, just to pay the bills.

I'm not for closing the door right after I get in, I'm for closing the door, because the times are tough and the country is fucked. Once the economy starts expanding again, sure open the door. But until then, when jobs are limited, the last thing we need is bring in more competition.

Again this notion that immigrants "take jobs". And therefore immigrants increase the unemployment rate. This is simply counter-factual. People doing work lead to more people doing work, regardless of the work they do. People doing the same work for less pay arguably reduces the unemployment rate (due to multiple factors).

So how exactly do immigrants create jobs?

They increase unemployment rate because they come here to get jobs.

Why can't the same people be some of the 10% of unemployed in this country? Sure it reduces the unemployment rate, but only if it's the same 10% going for it, if you add an extra half a million unemployed workers, them taking jobs does nothing for unemployment

"So how exactly do immigrants create jobs?"

The same way newly born Americans do: they consume goods and services.

They also boot-strap economies.

Individuals with good product ideas, a field of consumers, and cheap labor can produce large numbers of goods that can be exported as well as consumed in local economies.

This is much harder to do when dealing with labor that has an upward force applied to its wages, either by being artificially limited (as in current immigration policies) or by requiring a rare skill.

Economies aren't zero-sum games. I really don't get why more people don't understand this.

That's the "broken windows" theory, which is half right. They actually create jobs by doing work.

Imagine the simplest case of 2 people (Alice and Bob) and a single $100 bill. If Alice is kind hearted and gives Bob $100 every time she is able but Bob pays $100 for Alice's work (say, making a chair, painting a house, etc.) this isn't a functional economy. All of Alice's labor goes to benefit Bob, Alice would be better off abstaining from the "economy" and using her labor to benefit herself.

Now imagine that Alice gives Bob $100 for work that Bob's done, then Bob gives Alice $100 for work that Alice has done, etc, etc. Alice then ends up with the fruits of Bob's labor, and Bob ends up with the fruits of Alice's labor, if they have unique skills then this true economy could be mutually beneficial.

The trading of money is just a proxy for the bartering of goods and services, money is just paper. Doing work contributes positively to the economy, it's the fundamental building block of the economy (not spending money).

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