Comment by kiba | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kiba | Hacker News Reader

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This isn't just frighteningly ignorant, it ends up having a devastating impact on many young people. One anecdote: I knew a bright young student who loved learning, but hated school. Why? He took algebra and french in 8th grade; he passed algebra and failed french. When he got to 9th grade he was placed in algebra again, and french 2. The school would not budge from its original placement; I don't know the rationale. He failed algebra because he refused to do any homework, and failed french because he couldn't make any sense of the class. I want smart teachers to take control of education so this s% doesn't happen nearly as often as it does.

Sounds like passing a student with 80% grade, only with 60%. It's like passing a student who didn't master 40% of the content, and compounding it over and over again with each grade level, until eventual nothingness.

That's what it means to pass a student with a B, C, or an F. This is not quite the same thing as mastery of the subject, but it's a good proxy. Even an A student will miss some stuff.

I had a conversation with a math teacher from another school not too long ago. Both of our schools require a minimum of two credits of math to graduate. My school allows students to spread this credit out developing a deeper understanding of basic math, and beginning algebra. His school requires everyone to receive a passing grade in the equivalent of Algebra 2. The lowest passing score at my school is a B-; at his school it's a D-.

We have a reputation for being an "easy" school, so I asked him what the value of earning a D- in Algebra 2. His response: "At least they've been exposed to higher math." That's such an elitist answer, and it does such a disservice to students.

The interesting part of the story is that he started to question the value of a D- when asked in this way. He stopped comparing basic algebra to Algebra 2, and started comparing a B- in Algebra 1 to a D- in Algebra 2. It's an interesting comparison.

Sounds like your school is suffering from grade inflation. The average grade used to be a C. (At my college, it still was.) If you tell the teachers that a C is a failing grade, they will not give a C grade to a student who's doing an OK job in their eyes.

It's not grade inflation. We're a small alternative high school, and it's easier for us to do the right thing for students, even if it means going against existing bureaucracy. The smallest unit of credit in our traditional high school is 0.5 credits; at our school it's 0.25 credits. We grant passing grades for the parts of a class students demonstrate an understanding of, and grant partial credit for a class. This mitigates some of the issues involved with averaging over the course of an entire semester.

Usually, when someone earns a B-, they do have a basic understanding of the material they were learning. A student who earns a D- with 0.5 credit at the traditional high school will usually earn a B- and 0.25 credits from us. At the traditional school, they're "done" with that class. At our school, they've got to do something to demonstrate further understanding. It's not a perfect system, but it's not as simple as grade inflation.

Is it more useful for your grade to tell you how much of the topic you know in relation to the other students in your class (C = the average grade) or for your grade to tell you how much of the topic you know (A = you understand everything that was taught, B = you understand most of what was taught, C = you understand some of what was taught...)

If you fit an entire class on a bell curve and give out 1 A, 2 B's, 4 C's, 2 D's and 1 F but the highest grade was actually a 32% would those grades be useful information? Sure, the A student knows more than the C student ... but none of the students really understand any of the material.

Edit: by "how much of the topic do you know" I actually mean "how much of what was taught of the topic do you know"

Ie, if the teacher taught you how to graph a linear equation and you can graph a linear equation, then you should get an A. If you can't graph a linear equation, you should get some grade less than an A. If nobody in the class can graph a linear equation, then what use is it to give an A to the person who can't graph a linear equation, but does it less wrong than everyone else?

How much of the topic I know? That would be vanishingly small for any grade before college, and barely a blip for classes in my major at the end of college. No, I don't think that's useful.

'We have a reputation for being an "easy" school, so I asked him what the value of earning a D- in Algebra 2. His response: "At least they've been exposed to higher math."'

When you say Algebra, I assume you mean what most of us learn in pre-college schools? As opposed to what a mathematics major in college would call "Algebra"? If so, that's hardly even "exposure" to higher math, that's more just a demonstration that there is a such thing other than raw numeric arithmetic.

> That's what it means to pass a student with a B, C, or an F. This is not quite the same thing as mastery of the subject, but it's a good proxy. Even an A student will miss some stuff.

Grade might be a proxy for mastery in some situations but it's likely not in the majority. Grade is more often than not a combination of mastery, ability to take tests, willingness to do homework and an accounting of how often you show up.

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