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Comment by a2kadet | Hacker News Reader

> To me, Kickstarter backers aren’t just customers. They’re our friends. They are mavens. They represent our most passionate, most ardent and most enthusiastic customers.

> Yes, that’s it. I failed. We failed. It feels horrible, and it’s the end of Ada. But not the end of Triggertrap.

Uh... if I was your "friend" I would be livid that you weren't going bankrupt to sell off every asset you had to pay me back in full.

*Edit - My post was more about the use of the term friendship to absolve the author of guilt. Seems to have been effective This seems like shady business ethics to me.

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In the friend scenario, you gave your friend a hundred bucks so he could try to build his dream widget. Would you really demand that your friend be declared bankrupt over a 100 dollar debt?

(I'm not sure I agree that Kickstarter backers are that kind of "friends" to companies who took their money, but that seems to be the argument...)

> To me, Kickstarter backers aren’t just customers.

No , the people you took money from aren't even your customers, because you didn't give them the service they paid for. So don't even insult them saying they aren't just customers, they aren't even customers to you. If there were, you would have delivered what you promised. They are just easy money with no strings attached.

If I was his friend, I'd buy him a drink and tell him that we all fuck up and things will get better.

I am glad that my friends feel differently (and that I feel differently about my friends and their success/failure).

If you are expecting to be paid back in full then you should not be spending your money on Kickstarter!

At the same time, though, being paid back shouldn't be a low priority.

At the time they launched this project the TOS said "deliver the product or offer a full refund".

That seems like completely unrealistic terms. How can you afford to pay for a refund if the product fails?

Don't ask me. https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012?country=GB

> Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.

> Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

> Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.

That "at any time" para is possibly going to cause problems to the backers.

So if you are successful, you are required to fulfill your terms. Or you can back out by refunding money.

But if you fail, you have no such obligation.

Yeah but that's not if you succeed at MAKING the product, it's if you succeed at FUNDING.

Oh, I see...

Its perfectly realistic terms if:

1) The rewards aren't dependent on project success, or 2) The rewards are dependent on project success, but the project is being Kickstarted to fund something that is prototyped and ready to go into production, and the funding level is set appropriate to pay the production costs for the delivered rewards plus whatever premium the company expects to need to go forward.

Its only unreasonable if the project sets the rewards and funding levels at levels that are unreasonable.

When the project sets the funding target and the offered rewards, its not unreasonable to expect the project to be responsible for actually being able to meet the promised rewards if it meets the funding level it set.

No one forces you to put a project on Kickstarter, or sets the funding target or reward levels for you.

That's why many projects use a bunch of non-product rewards where the costs are unpredictable, like t-shirts, stickers, and other stuff whose costs are completely predictable and which serves a sort-of marketing function, without being dependent on the core technology.

Then every dollar from those rewards can go into development before getting to the manufacturing stage. Those lower-value rewards can easily be fulfilled, and if you realize there's some sort of fundamental problem with the project you have the possibility to shut it down and refund device payments before that pledge money is spent.

I realize that this is a very idealized approach and that in many cases the amount raised from ancillaries isn't that much, the bulk of funds come from potential buyers for the device. But perhaps that's part of the problem. I'm considering doing a crowdfund project myself later this year (for a film) and although I'm months away from making any decisions I am trying to think through contingency situations now.

Some "friend" you are then.

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