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Comment by benihana | Hacker News Reader

At this point, I find this whole thing funny. Again.

How many times has Apple done this in modern times? Remember the outrage when Apple removed floppy disk drives? Optical drives? Ethernet ports? Remember how mad everyone got when Apple replaced their old, thick connector on the iPhone 5? Nobody complains about how thin their phone is now that the old 30pin connector is no longer the limiting factor on size. Nobody is bemoaning the fact that they can't watch a DVD on their laptop - we've moved on from optical media.

Nobody will even bother examining the bellyaching about this in a couple of years because we'll all be so happy with the obvious (in hindsight) decision to switch to USB-C.

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> we'll all be so happy with the obvious (in hindsight) decision to switch to USB-C.

I don't think the issue is the inclusion of USB-C -- in fact, USB-C offers a lot.

I think the issue is only having one connector on the entire laptop. What happens if that port fails or beaks? Your laptop stops working...

What happens if that port fails or beaks? Your laptop stops working...

I'm not a fan of their single-port decision either, but in fairness: Every laptop stops working when the charging port breaks. No matter how many other ports it may have.

> Every laptop stops working when the charging port breaks

That is true, however if you are using the same port for a multitude of things (plugging/unplugging USB sticks, monitors, etc...) it's going to get a lot more use, and therefore increases the likelihood of something breaking.

I've broken USB ports before on laptops, usually by crushing the floating center plastic thing (USB cable gets ripped out weirdly or something), but I have other USB ports so life goes on. USB-C has the same center floating plastic bit -- just waiting for it to get broken off.

DC ports tend to be pretty robust, but do break from time-to-time. Apple's solution to this was the Magsafe connector, which avoided the issue for the most part. Seems like a step backwards for laptops to now rely on a single, potentially fragile port for everything.

> That is true, however if you are using the same port for a multitude of things (plugging/unplugging USB sticks, monitors, etc...) it's going to get a lot more use, and therefore increases the likelihood of something breaking.

By design it allows at least 10000 cycles of insertion/removal. Using it 8 times a day every single day you'd need about 3.5 years to end them. It's probably ok for most workloads.

Speaking from a helpdesk perspective, user-caused breakages are rarely by design.

And Apple is replacing the nigh-indestructible magsafe with a traditional plug...

Of course this is purely anecdotal, but amongst my friends and coworkers I've seen magsafe connectors fail at about the same rate as normal power adapters. Usually at the end where the wire goes into the wall plug brick part.

Yes the cheap to replace wire end breaks easily. But the expensive-to-repair computer side port is solid. You're going to see a lot more expensive computer repairs with the USB-C charging port.

True. Although I think it would be much better for durability if Apple used the same wire/power brick layout as everyone else: have the power brick in the middle of the wire, accepting 120/240 V from a standard "figure-eight" cord. Then that cord would be the one that breaks, and they cost $1 to replace. Of course this conflicts with Apple's business model...

At least over here in Europe, you can attach a bog-standard 240V cord to the Apple power brick so it sits in the middle of the cord. However, this does not help if the computer-side plug does not disengage if your lovely child barrels down your living room.

Magsafe has prevented a costly fall or other here.

All the Apple laptop and iPad adapters I've gotten accept a standard figure-8 cord if you just slide off the national plug. For my it's the slim cord between the charger and the machine that wears out.

Interesting. I've never seen anyone using it with the figure-8 cord. My intuition was that having the adapter stuck to the wall tends to often bend the thin cord on the DC side. As you say, that's what usually fails.

MagSafe was great when laptops got 3-4 hours (or less) of battery life which required re-charging in hostile conditions. MagSafe3 is 8-10 hours of battery life. No one can possibly trip over your charger if it's not plugged in.

that's an interesting point-- i was wondering why not having MagSafe anymore wasn't making me that upset (considering how magical and awesome i thought it was when it came out) and it definitely comes down to this. i guess we hit the point where the magnetic fanciness has become less useful than reducing cableage sometime in the past few years...

Not if you had 2 USB-C ports, and you could charge from either side. That would be pretty cool actually.

And even cooler if it could charge twice as fast when you plug both in.

but very bad for the battery if you do that.

What I hear people complaining about is that the product isn't complete out of the box: You immediately have to go out and buy a hub, or at least a charger that also acts like a hub, and/or an HDMI adapter. Some of these gadgets are, for now, a little expensive -- $40 for something that used to be built in is, for some people, an insult. (I don't mind myself; I take the long view about things like this.)

("it's just an 80 dollar adapter from the apple store" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFhjDX-DUew )

The product is complete out of the box, just not complete for every use case. Even as a commercial editor my need for multiple ports decreases every year. Currently I work on broadcast spots with one client using one drive and dropbox. If I was on the print or web side I could get rid of that drive. I haven't used a thumbdrive in probably a year. Everything is dropbox or google drive if it's not large video files that require a raid. Two years ago I cut spots for Reebok on location using a 13" air, I have no doubt I could do the same with the new Macbook.

Now I wouldn't buy the new Macbook for my main editing rig, but I might buy it to use when traveling and consulting. I don't understand people complaining about a product that was obviously not designed for their use.

It's complete, but most people will want and need to buy some kind of adapter for their external drives or whatever.

Some of the anger seems to stem from confusion about what the new MacBook is. It's clearly a smaller version of the Air, not a replacement for the Pro.

If you have devices that immediately require you to buy a hug for the new MacBook, it's obvious you're not the target market, and you need to buy one of the more "Pro" ones.

I.e. the one with "Pro" in the name.

I see people complaining about the Macbook like Apple is forcing you to buy it. You're exactly right, for the people who are complaining, Apple makes a Macbook Pro with multiple ports on it. Or even a Macbook Air with a couple extra ports.

Just because Apple has an iPad doesn't mean you can't buy a Mac Pro, you know?

Also, only one device connected at a time, and not devices if you're charging.

Forget about using a mouse a these laptops.

It's intended to be used with a Bluetooth mouse (if the user wants to use something other than the trackpad).

Even now, this is sort of like saying 'Forget about watching a movie on these laptops' about it since it doesn't have a DVD drive! (I was going to say 'in a little while', but really, wireless mice are so common now)

High end mice still don't come in plain-bluetooth version. I've a couple of Logitech Performance MX and there's still no succesor (either from Logitech or an alternative from another company) that's just plain bluetooth with no dongle.

> [...] wireless mice are so common now)

I never made any mention of a non-wireless mouse. All highend mice come with USB dongles, regrettably.

Lack of optical drive is still annoying. And I still have a good laugh every time I watch an Apple user trying to give a presentation, struggling to connect to wifi because they don't have an ethernet port, and then not having the right adapter to connect to the projector. Or failing to find a charger for their phone.

You're right that this is classic Apple, but I wouldn't call any of those decisions obviously right. And there have been plenty of bad calls along the way - remember when Apple tried to get you to use Firewire hard drives rather than USB? Remember PERCH? Remember those magnetic ethernet cables? Having fun adaptering back and forth between DisplayPort and Thunderbolt?

Totally! And moreover, Apple's been on this get-rid-of-all-the-cables kick since at least the introduction of AudioVision 14 Display... in 1993. Anyone else remember the NeXT's unified power/display/keyboard/mouse/audio cable? ADC cables that passed power, display, and USB through the Cinema displays?

Aside from not relying on outside technologies for their success, eliminating cables has basically been Apple's central theme since (and before) their comeback. At least it's based on a standard this time.

While Apple has been in the business of simplifying ports there is a difference at least in previous cases we were ready to move on I'd argue. Back in 1999 I don't think I had used a floppy for a few years, zip drives? Sure, but not a floppy. Dropping the optical drive was bound to happen, I don't think I've really used a optical media bay outside of a game console for years.

However, every day at work, I plug my MacBook Retina into two monitors, plug in my USB 3.0 drive, sometimes my iPhone to charge or do dev stuffs, and charger, and frequently use my SD card slot as a 3rd HDD. Apple now is in the business of offloading the problem of I/O to the user, they haven't fixed it. It wouldn't have hurt the MacBook to include 2-4 ports, all USB3c

I'm more than ready to move on to this, and would have been ready years ago. In 1999, floppy disk use was far more prevalent than the need for multiple USB ports is now. For your described use case, you'll just plug your Macbook into a USB3 hub or dongle with HDMI (I don't think this machine has enough graphics power for multiple external screens). You will actually have fewer cables to manage.

And it actually would hurt the Macbook to include more ports. The current port is above the keyboard, likely because it can't fit under the keyboard. Adding more ports would mean increasing one of the dimensions. Given the versatility of the USB3C port, I think it's the best possible tradeoff. If you absolutely use lots of ports day to day, and can't use a hub, then this really isn't the computer for you, and Apple will even sell you one of those.

If you plug all that stuff in every day, why not just get a the inevitable hub apple is going to sell? That way just one cable to plug in each morning instead of 5.

Apple Desktop Bus was more or less USB 0.

Yeah, every day you are reminded because someone forgot their apple adapter. It's nothing but pathetic.

Optical drives and floppy discs were obvious, they were never used on a daily basis when they were removed and that they remained so long in laptops (macs included) is just astounding. But something like Ethernet is just ludicrous. Unfortunately, if you want a slim laptop Ethernet will have to go - but it sure as hell will be missed in the coming decade.

Non-replacable batteries... Another milestone? No one was stupid enough to come up with that before apple, and thanks to that we all have to throw away all of our devices after a few years. But who cares, right?

I agree that ethernet is valuable, which is why I keep a usb-ethernet adapter with me.

> Unfortunately, if you want a slim laptop Ethernet will have to go

Am I the only one who still remembers PCMCIA cards (thinner than most slim laptops) with Ethernet ports?

Here, an example from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XJACK_network_card_extend...

You have to plug the non-part-of-the-laptop PCMCIA card, just like you have to plug the non-part-of-the-laptop USB adapter. Not much big of a difference.

The difference is that the PCMCIA card doesn't extrude from the laptop. That thing is awesome, never seen one.

I've only seen those that have either a large RJ45 connector extruding from the card, like: http://www.automation-drive.com/EX/05-13-21/a88fa.jpg

Or where you'd needed an adapter dongle that connected to the PCMCIA card.

I know there was a laptop or at least a concept of it with something similar to the (parent) XJACK connector, but have never seen it in real life. Would love to see them in ultrabooks.

"At this point, I find this whole thing funny. Again"

Yup. It's more than just funny. The number of people I know who are carrying around "our thinnest, lightest macbook yet" with a bagful of adaptors that weigh more than the laptop is HILARIOUS.

As for me, I'm carrying around a 2012 Macbook Pro (the last model with a non-glossy screen). Even though my work involves dealing with iOS projects etc., my next laptop will probably be running Linux and I'll learn to rely on my iMac for iOS specific work.

> bagful of adaptors that weigh more than the laptop

They would have to carry around somewhere between 30 to 50 adapters to reach 2 pounds. I'm excluding the power adapter since that's a baseline for any laptop.

But doesn't the giant bag of fiddly adapters become more cumbersome than just a laptop with everything built into it? Like your parent, I am running a non-retina 2012 MBP and it's great - no need for an array of tangled adapters. It's all in there.

> Nobody complains about how thin their phone is now that the old 30pin connector is no longer the limiting factor on size

Yeah, they do. Ask someone whose iPhone has just died (again) if they'd take it being a bit thicker with a bit more battery, and I don't know anyone who wouldn't make the trade.

And I personally still miss living in a world where no matter where you went you were never more than 5 feet from a 30-pin cable.

FWIW, my anecdotal experience is the exact opposite of your anecdotal experience, which I guess is the nature of such things.

Which part? Everyone you know prefers thinness over battery life? Or prefers having fewer compatible cables around?

I think it's great that Apple has replaced all those ports with USB-C, and as you point out it is exactly in line with previous decisions to prune almost obsolete tech which turned out very well. There will be a lot of unjustified moaning and then people will be happy when the whole world runs on USB-C (at last, one fast standard for connectors that everyone can agree on).

I'd rather have two USB-C ports though than a pointless little audio jack - they should have put one on either side as Google have on their pixel. People could use bluetooth headphones with it if they really couldn't find some other place for the headphone jack, but I'm sure they could have squeezed it in if they tried hard enough. As it is one port is rather limiting (yes I know it shares data and power).

It'd be nice to be able to charge an iphone and charge the computer at the same time, so on port means many people will require a hub. They should also have sorted out their monitors with a refresh which actually functions as a hub for USB-A and USB-C - perhaps they'll do that before launch or I hope soon after.

> Remember the outrage when Apple removed floppy disk drives? Optical drives? Ethernet ports?

Not really. What outrage? Floppy and Optical drives were dropped when they were already old. I remember some people complaining about the lack of USB, but you can get a thunderbolt<->ethernet adapter when you purchase it. Also, an ethernet port itself if thicker than the laptop itself, so it's understandable.

> Nobody is bemoaning the fact that they can't watch a DVD on their laptop - we've moved on from optical media.

I bemoan that about my work laptop. It's not possible to legally stream all the things I'd like to watch, and for whatever reason building USB boot drives is still more painful than burning ISOs to DVDs or CDs (no good reason for that, but each time it's been the case).

I understand your general point and think it holds true. However, I would say in my mind that the way Apple can decide to change their connector and suddenly make redundant a full range of downstream devices (house and car chargers, general chargers, audio equipment) is a real negative and one of the 3 or 4 things that keeps me from moving back over from Android.

3rd party market lock-in is one of the reasons I switched to Android too. I understand Apple is out to make money like everyone else, but skipping micro-usb is (from my perspective) not a product enhancement.

Their delayed support on NFC arguably killed the user adoption for the tech as well, but i digress.

Using open standards would be an Android plus for me too, if micro-usb didn't suck ass compared to Thunderbolt.

Is that a technical term? :)

Android OEMs recently stabilized onto Mini-B but I've seen Android phones with Micro-B on them in the past and Samsung even had their own Apple 40-pin knock off for a while. Now all signs are pointing towards Android OEMs adopting the Type C port soon too, so you're getting a fourth port option for Android in the last 5 years.

Good point, but you have Mini-B and Micro-B reversed. Mini is the old thicker connector that you don't see much any more, and Micro is the newer thinner one.

Samsung also had USB3 Micro-B (the wide connector) on the Galaxy Note 3, but went back to a regular Micro-B in the Note 4.

Yeah. GP's point is just plain wrong, if he was concerned about 3rd party stuff lasting for more than one phone purchase, iPhones are clearly the winner with only have two connector options since 2008 while keeping their form factor consistent for two generations (and there are adapters for the first switch, and possibly a third switch this fall, where adapters are still plausible all the way back to original accessories).

Samsung and most other Android manufacturers aren't even guaranteed to maintain physical dimension compatibility between different models of the same exact phone (S6 vs S6 Edge, for example), let alone if you were to just stay with Android as an OS and were switching between manufacturers each upgrade. No way in hell you're keeping any nice-fitting docks or cases around for more than one Android phone purchase.

But that's not true, is it? The old interfaces are generally still supported with adapters, like this.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD824ZM/A/lightning-to-30-...

So at worst you can complain that existing equipment may require an adapter. That seems like a fair price for progress to me.

I mean if I buy an iPhone 6 my 3 chargers + 2 car chargers + Bose audio device are now junked. Thats all I mean.

They kept the 30-pin connector around far, far longer than most companies kept their proprietary power or data connectors. When they switched it was to something robust enough they wouldn't need to fiddle with it for a long time.

Standards change, but at least this one hasn't changed very often. I think "once" is an allowable amount of change.

If you bought a Galaxy S5, 3 chargers, 2 car chargers and a Bose devise for it and then upgraded to a S6, how do you think you'd fare?

I don't know. (HTC One) Did they follow Apple's lead and change their approach too?

Your inner fanboy is leaking. It wasn't Apple's lead.

Samsung did it at least twice before Apple switched to Lightning, another time after Lightning and will probably also move to Type C soon. Same for HTC, they switched port choices before Apple did as well, the HTC Dream has a different USB port than the HTC Evo and both came before the iPhone 5, and they're also likely to change to switch to this as well.

So basically Apple is the only choice that comes closest to behaving as you expressed a desire for and instead you shit on them out of complete ignorance. Good job.

You really are an evil duck.

I agree. Decisions like this move technology forward (for the good or bad)

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