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Comment by jonnybgood | Hacker News Reader

So, this platform allows policy to be decided by a "technorati"[1] class?

Are there individuals with low-income, little to no internet access, don't know what a blockchain or open source is, have hectic work schedules with the addition of raising a family participating on your platform?

From what I can tell this platform is giving more power to those who already have some sense of power. This platform does not alleviate the problem of those in society who do not have any power or say in political processes. It may even be argued this platform may contribute to the problem.

[1] Those who have the privilege, time, and monetary means of internet access, acquiring/have knowledge of internet technologies, and being a participant.

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The only people that believe that internet access is only for the rich, is rich people.

We come from Argentina, a latinamerican country and we are very aware of the social challenges we face.

But it's not just a technological solution, we ALSO created a Political party that does a lot of offline activism helping society understand the power they have using digital technology.

The Net Party ran for elections in 2013 and got 1.2% of the votes in Buenos Aires, it was an incredible first election for a small party and that led to DemocracyOS being implemented officially by the Congress.

Thanks to that, a lot of bills got attention. For example: Nureses now have better working conditions thanks to the action taken on DemocracyOS for the Congress of Buenos Aires.

Read more about it here: http://democracyos.org/about-us

"Its candidates are committed to always vote in Congress according to what citizens vote online."

You've built a system that requires privilege. And you're giving power only to those who have that privilege.

You didn't address the fact there are those who do not have that privilege. Helping people understand the power of digital technology is meaningless if there are those who do not even have the digital technology.

Are you going to buy them the digital technology? Are you going to pay for their internet access? How are you going to provide equal privilege?

EDIT: Who is your demographic?

The only source that can provide equal access without using market forces, is the State. For the State to have such political will, it must have a political party that embraces the view on why internet access means access to education and knowledge. And that's one of the core aspects of our political party.

Privilege? Think about a system that has 500 decision makers for a population of 300 million. That certainly requires TONS of more privilege than the idea we are proposing here where citizens can have a direct input NOT once every 2 years, but every week if they want to.

Take your time.

I'm not in disagreement with your ideas behind your political party, but I do not agree with the system you want to institute.

Can you explain why? I agree with their stystem but I think that any system that gives direct voting power has to solve issues like vote selling and engagement. I think both should be introduced in the system as explicit economic incentives.

Are you going to buy them the digital technology? Are you going to pay for their internet access? How are you going to provide equal privilege?

It may come as a shock to you, but poor people have cellphones and internet, too.

And the ones who don't?

The current world population is 7 billion people.

Approximately 1 billion smartphones are sold every year.

Do the math.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

[2] http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2665715

Because nobody buys more than one phone ever. Those two numbers have no impact on each other.

What do you think happens to all the old phones of the people who buy new phones?

look at the movie of what's happening in the world, not the picture.

> The only people that believe that internet access is only for the rich, is rich people.

> The Net Party ran for elections in 2013 and got 1.2% of the votes in Buenos Aires

How do you justify that most of the votes came from wealthy neighborhoods of the city?

https://twitter.com/seppo0010/status/578031940651118593

we had votes in every single neighborhood of the city. Our correlation was better with progressive parties (ARI) than conservative (PRO) ones even. Actually in Congress, The Workers Party (PO) brought more users to DemocracyOS than ANY other party.

I tried to do the math myself about the correlation, but it seems like my statistics teachers would be disappointed[1]. What R^2 did you get compared to ARI and what with PRO?

At first sight, it does not seem significant.

My claim was about poor and rich people, and you used progressive and conservatives parties as a proxy indicator, which is not great. In USA, for example, California and New York are two of the richest states and they are progressive, while the poorest tend to be conservative.

In the "comunas" 4, 8 and 9 (Lugano, Mataderos, Soldati, Pompeya, Barracas) the party "UNION PRO" did better than "UNEN" (a.k.a.: "ARI"), and in the 12, 13, 14 (Urquiza, Belgrano, Palermo) their percentages were really close.

If anything, your statement is completely unrelated to my question.

> Actually in Congress, The Workers Party (PO) brought more users to DemocracyOS than ANY other party.

Correlation does not imply causality. One possible explanation is that both DemocracyOS and PO have a stronger impact on young people.

[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TqWBMk18bbr1TQV-Wq0a...

Yes. We do better in the younger generation. We are building for the future and thinking the long term.

and again: only rich people believe internet is for the rich. In every slum you'll find every single kid with a huge smartphone.

As you came to realize by the end of your rant: the gap is more generational than Socio-economical. That's why this makes sense in the long term.

Rant? Do you really consider I was ranting at any point?

I think I've exhibit thoughts, tried to look for mathematical proof, quoted people who are smarter than me, wonder about known problems when making decisions, and you consider that a rant?

You have no addressed a single concern I have shared. You don't have to, but your replies are infuriating because you are missing the point every time.

You are just repeating marketing phrases like "every single kid with a huge smartphone". Well, what does that prove? Does it prove that internet has as much penetration in lower income population than it does in high income one? I think not. And if you keep repeating that you are just insulting the young people who live in a slum and do not have smartphone, because you are blaming them for not having one.

> the gap is more generational than Socio-economical

That gap is not related to democracyOS but to technology. You will have a stronger impact on a young generation not because "you are thinking in long term" but because they'll understand it faster.

This comment was mostly a rant. And from now on I'll refuse to answer any comment you write until you want to provide something useful to talk about, or even back your statements.

It just proves that you have never been in a slum from Buenos Aires. And yes, denying a rant with a rant speaks for itself. :)

Te respondiste a vos solo, no a mí.

Sí he estado, no desde que se popularizaron los smartphones, y mientras hablas de experiencias personales no deja de ser estadísticamente insignificante.

Y no, me calenté con tu comentario, antes estaba argumentando, a diferencia de vos que no tuviste un solo arugmento.

Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access.

source: INDEC. National stats often used by Google too in Argentina (they where leaked to me, but it's public you can look for them).

don't hide in Spanish.

> don't hide in Spanish.

lol; yes, I'm hiding when I'm saying (a) you are using threading wrong (b) my personal experience is statically insignificant (c) I'm trying to have a debate while you have not presented a single argument.

> Stats? 72% of the Homes of Buenos Aires have Internet access. Of those, 88% with broadband access.

> Oh, I forgot: 93% of < 30 year olds access social media at least once a week in Buenos Aires.

Is that Buenos Aires City, or Buenos Aires City and Surrounds, or Buenos Aires Province, or Buenos Aires City and Province?

72% is the average, how is it distribute? we are talking about income inequality here, not about internet access.

Even in the most optimistic case where it is evenly distributed, what are you trying to prove? My criticism was that Partido de la Red got a lot better results on wealthier areas, and I was wondering how do you justify.

Saying that poor people also have internet actually makes your case worse, it means they actively decided that your project does not represent them.

A better argument would have been that access is getting there but they don't have it yet.

I replied from a Mobile App. Stats are for Buenos Aires city, that's where we run. Im proving that you never been into a slum.

You've said "personal experience is statically insignificant"

I agree, that's why I replied 93% of under 30 year olds in Buenos Aires access social media at least once a week.

I mentioned my personal experience because it was obvious how many of these kids access the internet. You see that 93% stat everywhere if you actually cared and waled the streets of the city.

These attacks where the most common ones we had during the campaign. So let me give you an update: the largest organisation that implemented DemocracyOS is a political party from Kenya. Over there 25% of the GDP is already transacted through mobile devices.

I traveled a lot around the world, specially Latin America. And I did notice that civic adoption of technology is way stronger in developing nations that are struggling than in developed ones. Venezuela is an impressive case if you ever get to see what's going on ever there.

So no, I don't bullshit. I've been working on this for many years now.

> Im proving that you never been into a slum.

You proof is irrelevant, and incorrect. I lived the past two years in California. Were does stats also correct two years ago? Or your "never" actually means "recently"?

> These attacks where the most common ones we had during the campaign.

Attacks? Really? I see that Partido de la Red is following Frente para la Victoria speech where you are either 100% with them, or you are the enemy. Am I getting paid be the Clarin Group now as well? I made questions.

> if you actually cared and waled the streets of the city

Ugh, that is an attach, and I don't really like your tone. You are implying that you only care if you are physically there, which is incorrect on every possible level.

You are systematically ignoring the questions I have asked, posting cherry-picked facts that are at most mildly related to the conversation I was trying to have with you.

My original question was: "How do you justify that most of the votes came from wealthy neighborhoods of the city?"

Your answer was repeating that people, even poor people, use internet. Well, cool, that's awesome. Now what do you think about my question for a change?

Thanks for acknowledging my point. Busy day today! Bye

Oh, I forgot: 93% of < 30 year olds access social media at least once a week in Buenos Aires.

Why employ the means of a party though? Isn't that the 19th century political form par excellence? In particular - why the one party?

I get that you're trying to reinvigorate the notion of the political party, but there is an argument to be made that a form of politics which reflects the internet itself would have no parties, and certainly not one party - no universal representation of particularities, since, as you write in the manifesto, the 'peers' are themselves singularities, and by definition singularities cannot be subsumed. (Kant 101.)

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