Comment by bruceb | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bruceb | Hacker News Reader

Immigration is complex but what I hate is the BS and half lies that are told like this author does. "We debate immigration and border controls for Mexico ad nauseum, yet, on the whole, the typical immigrant isn’t Mexican."

Like many newspapers the author is trying to blur the line between legal and illegal immigrant. The reason we are talking about border controls is because yes most come from Mexico. The typical person who is here illegally is Mexican, over 60% are from Mexico. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit... Add in central America and around 75% of people coming illegally are from southern border. I can understand their motivation. What I can't stand is trying to present BS.

When they author is trying to obscure facts one must wonder what other stats he is omitting or only half presenting.

As for taxes. Yes taxes suck. They also fund a ton of things that make American #1 in many areas. Should Americans abroad pay as much as American at home, of course not. But they clearly should still pay. You have a great passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else. Why should you get to pay nothing while the rest of Americans maintain the great country for you to come back when you please? Maybe we should make it cheaper for people to renounce their citizenship, they are not needed.

Note: I should have made two post splitting comment on the immigration stats and taxes in to two posts to see the up/down vote difference based on the issues.

You seem to be putting the US on too high of a pedestal.

Reality is the US is not all that and you can get most if not all the opportunities you're talking about somewhere else maybe even better healthcare and unemployment benefits without having to pay tax to a country you're not even using the public services of.

I have multiple citizenship and I would find it unacceptable if any of the countries demanded more then their fair share or charges.

Having to pay to renew you passport or processing other paperwork is acceptable paying tax to a country you don't live in isn't.

Having to pay 2K to renounce you citizenship is crazy and the fact that a lot of people still do shows how bad the policy and taxes are.

Reality is owning a US citizenship in a foreign country when you have no intention of coming back is detrimental to your financial well being.

I'm not much for patriotism and other such niceties looking at it as a cold business transaction it is detrimental to the owner with very few benefits compared to other countries.

> Having to pay to renew you passport or processing other paperwork is acceptable paying tax to a country you don't live in isn't.

One could argue that growing up in the US gave you a lot of benefits (infrastructure, education, healthcare, security and so on...), and that paying tax (even if not living there anymore) is a reasonable price for this.

One can argue that growing up in any European country gave you similar benefits and they require none of that.

You can't control where you are born but you can choose what citizenship you keep so shop around for a better 'offer'.

(but taxes are higher in Europe)

I agree that from a practical point of view, it makes sense to shop around. I just disagree with the argument we hear sometimes "I don't owe anything to my country". It's not the same to be born in the US than let say a poor african country.

You could make the same argument for France, Germany, Italy, Australia, Japan, etc...

Actually they probably gave you more, growing up, like health care.

But the US is the only country to do tax people like this.

Three reasons:

1. The US is the only country in the world whose citizens must declare and pay taxes even when they're living out of the country.

2. The paperwork involved is a royal pain in the neck.

3. Failure to do it subjects you to ridiculously high fines.

Even if you are Mayor of London and haven't lived in the UK since you were a child. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30932891

It seems part of the problem is that:

> You have a great passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else.

could be said about many other countries which don't tax non-residents on their financial affairs in the country in which they've chosen to live. So I think some find it hard to see how the US can justify it.

Except the passport obviously not all of it as I said. If you are paying that much tax then paying $2k to not be American isn't that high.

Naturally it isn't. But those other countries maintain their roads, schools etc. etc. without taxing non-residents on their financial affairs in other countries. The main point is the difference between how the US handles the tax issue vs. almost all other countries.

Now you mention it, renouncing citizenship seems relatively costly compared to e.g. the UK, though I have no idea what the average cost is for renunciation. Perhaps the UK is abnormally cheap! (EDIT: Should probably have pointed out that it's currently £144, or about $215.)

It would seem a shame if people felt they needed to renounce citizenship to avoid hassle/tax. Of course, some may argue that if they want to renounce at all, then perhaps they're not committed enough anyway, but I wouldn't argue that.

It actually costs a great deal more than that. You have to pay 5 years of expected future taxes upfront, in addition to the processing fees. This can be an enormous sum, depending on your income sources. If you just have a regular job and no investments, it is easily more than a whole year's salary. It is insane. In Norway, you generally have to renounce your prior citizenship to get Norwegian citizenship, but they consider it such a financial burden here to renounce US citizenship that they sometimes let you keep it (varies by individual situation).

Not all of it what?

Canadians are not taxed abroad and they have better healthcare than the US. Same with Germany

No question that the USA has a lot of opportunities, but one thing they are #1 is sense of self-importance.

What exactly is US 'number 1' in? Income inequality? Incarceration rate? Yes, I suppose those things do need a lot of money to fund.

US passport a great passport? I don't think so. Is it a schengen passport? No. Does it allow easy movement to commonwealth countries? No (it isn't a UK passport.)

I understand that major problem with taxes is how complicated it is. Accountancy fee could be thousands dolars even if yoy pay zero taxs.. Some foreign banks even refuse to open bank accounts to US citizens, because of complications.

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