Like working for Goldman Sachs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs#Controversies
Among the HN crowd I am sure you will find people on both sides of this issue: some people will think that GS is not working on 'good' problems that better the world, therefore, it is 'shady' to work there; and others will argue that GS is abstractly bettering the world through efficient resource/money allocation, especially for developing countries.
This would be true if GS didn't scam people, which they do. I accept the investment allocation argument, but I'm not convinced that it's valid for GS specifically.
EDIT: Holy shit, that controversies section just goes on and on. I just checked, and it's 7000 words long. This company's insane.
That's what I was thinking. That's an awful lot of smoke if there's no fire.
Nonsense. Lloyd Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman, is on record that the company is just "doing God’s work". http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/goldman-chief-says-he...
/sarcasm
This is not just the ethical way, this is the only legal approach. As a broker, you can't frontrun, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Flash-Boys-Insiders-Perspective-High-F...
--- and, if you haven't read it (do! it's great!), know that the objections aren't about the morality tale Lewis is trying to tell, but rather that none of the details of his case against HFT actually make any sense.
Another good book that is recommended constantly in these threads is _Dark Pools_. Dark Pools is also a great sort of rags-to-riches story about the emergence of the most important electronic markets from tiny startups; it's a good read.
For the major commercial brokerages (at big investment banks, like RBC), it is literally their whole job to move large blocks of tradable instruments without moving the market in the process. Shopping large blocks is supposed to be difficult, because things are priced by the law of supply and demand.
If you're trying to sell (in RBC's case, for a client) 1000 lots of XYZ, you have an extremely important piece of insider information about XYZ: there are about to be 100,000 new XYZ shares on the market. Your attempt to sell all 100,000 is going to reduce the price of XYZ. Naturally, you want to capture the highest possible price for XYZ, so, naturally, you want to conceal your intent to sell 100,000 shares all at once.
Meanwhile, the market wants to do the best job possible of capturing all available information about XYZ and building into the current market price. Anything you do to tip your hand about your giant order will be analyzed by some market participant and used to execute a profitable trade (in this case, profiting by placing trades based on the [accurate] prediction that the price is going to fall).
The whole of _Flash Boys_ considers this trade a form of frontrunning, despite the fact that the traders doing it have no fiduciary responsibility either to RBC or to RBC's clients, and despite the fact that RBC's desire to sell at high prices involves RBC themselves exploiting an information asymmetry. In Lewis' world, the market is supposed to sit back and transact 1000 lots of XYZ without adjusting the price until after the giant corporations making that trade are done. It follows logically from Lewis' argument that market-making is itself somehow unethical.
This seems like minutiae, but (at least for the portions of the book about "level playing fields" and electronic markets) the theme running through the book is that markets should behave themselves and continue working in a way that matches the expectations of the equities desk at RBC. That's silly, but fine, until Lewis extrapolates from that the idea that these broken expectations harm Main Street investors. They don't, except to the extent that those investors predicate their returns on the largesse of big companies like RBC. The Chief Investment Officer at (unassailably awesome) Vanguard is on the record repeatedly about how electronic trading and HFT have improved returns for value investors and passively-managed funds.
Can't for the life of me think why this should be a criminal case though. Not sure how the American people are served by a conviction.
But I'm not sure I would call it "illegal".
anything we can do?
Seeing him arguing for something rather out of character is the joke. If you go back and look at his post history, you'll see some things going either way--but I don't think that makes the joke any less funny.
I use different things when poking fun at you. :)
Anyways, no harm done...it's just a few pg funbucks.
Obviously this is an exaggeration but GS essentially played against their own clients in many cases. Edit: (There are stuff on the net about this, like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/26/goldman-sachs-email..., but many of us know this system from the inside :) ).
Take my car, and now you have my car and I don't.
Take my trade secret, and now both of us have it. I haven't lost the knowledge itself.
The value may well have declined, however.
That very point was made by Thomas Jefferson on patents:
"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me."
http://www.businessinsider.com/thomas-jefferson-on-patents-2...
There are a lot of things which go into creating value for a company. Trade secrets are one of many factors. Execution, connections, business relationships, location (or locations for retail establishments), and more, all come into play.
Taking two well-known examples, the real value for both Coke and KFC is far less in the specific product forumulations of both companies -- those are effectively McGuffins. Rather it's in Coke's set of contracts with bottlers, distributers, retailers, and restaurants (many of which will carry _either_ Coke, _or_ Pepsi, but not both), etc. There are even "open source" colas whose recipies are published, but which don't have the market reach of the majors. For KFC, it's more a matter of retail outlets and supply chains -- having a global branding campaign, advertising and marketing, real estate in specified locations, and relationships with suppliers such that ingredients and product are supplied to these.
Yes, there are companies which do rely to a much greater extent on trade secrets, and there's some case to be made for some level of protection over these, particularly in tech. Michael Wolf's "Burn Rate" or ... I'm trying to remember the author and book, about the "Go" PDA who had their idea arguably poached by Microsoft. But in truth, execution and capitalization matter a tremendous amount, and exclusive knowledge of a specific concept, not so much.
Strategies have limited capacities, so if anyone else is trading using your strategy you're going to be making less money. This is exacerbated by how markets are largely anonymous and distributed: nobody is trading with a given firm specifically, so somebody using your long-maintained strategy doesn't face any disadvantages against you.
Moreover, being secret is the only protection strategies can meaningfully have. Copyright can't cover the strategy itself, just the code to implement it, and patents by definition require divulging how it works. And even if you could somehow enforce a patent on a trading strategy, other people would still be able to trade against it, making the whole idea a non-starter.
At the same time I still don't think prison is a good answer to this sort of crime—but I don't think it's a good answer to car theft or most other sorts of crime either. But that's a function of deep issues I have with the justice system, a story best left for another time.
How else can you explain John Corzine is still walking free and Madoff was never arrested for years despite many people screaming there was an obvious fraud? Why do you think they had to extradite some guy all the way from London in their search for a scapegoat for the Flash Crash? These people have a mutual protection gang going.
I'm sure you know this, but for others not following so closely:
the commodities broker for the "guy" from
London was MF Global, the sleazy firm that
Corzine was running during the Flash Crash
So now they are trying to extradite a minnow, but the scum heading MF Global have so far avoided any fallout. As Wiki puts it[1]: "Crimes have been committed here without a doubt.
We think there are enough facts out here to start
arresting people and start filing charges."
However, by August 2012, criminal investigators
had concluded that charges against Corzine,
or any other of MF Global's former executives
or employees would be unlikely.
MF Global allowed some clown trading out of his house to place orders for billions of dollars of futures contracts. If any reasonable percentage of those had been filled, the disruption to the markets would have been enormous. Not only did the "guy" in London not have enough capital to place those orders, they were big enough that MF Global itself didn't have enough capital. Of course, MF Global shortly later turned out to be a shell game, so maybe all that would have happened is they would have blown up a few months earlier.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MF_Global#April_2012:_Possible...