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Comment by DanBC | Hacker News Reader

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.

We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.

This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"

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>> But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about?"

And you know what? This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female friend does. The MRAs have the wrong of things IMHO, and I'm glad I have good friends.

> This is exactly what my most outspoken-feminist female friend does.

Outspoken feminism can mean many things.

Examples of outspoken feminism also include Jezebel, a mainstream feminist website that is highly popular with my female friends. It publishes an article saying "Have You Ever Beat Up a Boyfriend? Because, Uh, We Have" that includes lines like "...slapped a guy when "he told me he thought he had breast cancer. (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)" [1] (Note that men can get breast cancer.)

I'm not quite sure it's only the so-called MRAs that 'have the wrong kind of thing'. Mainstream feminism can also be pretty ridiculous.

[1] http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-...

In my case I meant my most outspoken feminist friend - i.e. someone who does not hide it and folds feminism into her outlook on life and her everyday actions.

Also please note that at no point have I said "all feminism is good and right all the time", I think much of the hysterical stuff on the net is counterproductive (at best) and some of it is downright hostile to all men.

--edit-- But I think that there is 'good' feminism in abundance as well, whereas I don't think that this exists very much in the MRA space.

Nothing can be good if it chooses to go by the same label as a lot of bad.

"Good" feminists provide cover for "bad" feminists. Thus, all feminists are bad.

So there's no good cake because bad cake exists?

I'm not quite buying that.

Cake doesn't choose to call itself cake. Feminists choose to call themselves feminists, and thereby associate themselves with bad feminists.

But let's not quibble here---most feminists are collectivists advocating for what they perceive as their in-group at the expense of others. There are very few self-professed feminists who would be good, were it merely not for the label.

Also, the reason you can't understand is probably because you are trying not to. Turning my point into something about cake is probably not an honest attempt to understand my point, but is probably a dishonest attempt to dismiss it.

No, it was not an honest attempt to understand your point, it was an attempt to ridicule your facile, ridiculous non-point.

I'd love to see your study on what most feminists advocate, it would make fascinating reading, what was your methodology?

> No, it was not an honest attempt to understand your point, it was an attempt to ridicule your facile, ridiculous non-point.

This shows that you put people's whims over the truth. You'd rather influence by intimidation than by referencing reality and using reason. I don't think this kind of behavior should be tolerated by this community.

> I'd love to see your study on what most feminists advocate, it would make fascinating reading, what was your methodology?

This is the other side of the same coin. You hold that nothing is true without some sort of research study, knowing full well that such studies are too concretely empirical to be used to draw reliable conclusions (which is why they often appear to disagree with one another). That leaves nothing but whims and intimidation.

I suppose I'll get labled an MRA for this but I've found feminists to be the absolutely least supportive people in my life over the past X years.

When somebody has an ideological belief that you're luckier than they are it's difficult for them to feel empathy for you.

Relating personal experience does not make one an 'MRA'.

It's always going to depend on who you know, and I'm not trying to say that feminism has made her a compassionate person, just that my friend is a good person regardless and her dedication to feminism hasn't made her into any sort of man-hating caricature.

> Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

What is vaguely frustrating about that? The thesis of many commentators seems to be, "Of course men are going to commit suicide. Society often acts in ways strongly unfavorable towards them.", which may possibly not align with your views. I see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur.

I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when already suicidal. If I told one of my co-workers "I'm feeling suicidal", your statement of "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?" is exactly the kind of answer I would get, and this is true about most decent-thinking people. (In fact, your specific statement sounded pretty insincere to me, and would almost suggest "Please don't talk to me about this," in real life.)

The real problem is why so many men are seeking to seriously commit suicide in the first place, which is why those "frustrating MRAs" are probably talking about it.

> see no reason for bundling them with the "MRA" label/slur

There's a difference between saying "here's a bunch of stuff that makes it harder for men" (not MRAs) and saying "women did it" (MRAs). There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it". That view isn't supported by the statistics which show higher rates of completed suicide by men for many many years, since before feminist movements became active.

> I think it is already acceptable for men to seek help when suicidal.

Notice that I'm talking about mental health before the person is suicidal. We know that most people with a mental health problem experience stigma. Also note that previous threads about suicide have had fucking awful examples of wha people think is the right thing to say when someone is suicidal. ("Why don't you go whitewater rafting instead?" Etc)

Why did so many men die from testicular cancer? They do not seek help when they find a lump on a testicle. We had extensive campaigns to get men to see a doctor when they find a lump to help reduce the death rate from testicular cancer.

Why do so many men attempt suicide? Because they do not seek help when depressed nor when suicidal. We know that men do mot seek help from anyone for their mental health. We think that getting men having simple conversations about their mental health will make it easier for them to seek help when they need it.

An example of the type of conversation (see the Matt and Tim video): http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/talking-about-mental-health

If you had a broken arm, in a cast, would you talk about it with your family? Your neighbour? On a first date? At a job interview? Now (obviously) swap "broken arm" with "mental health problem" and see if your answers change. Most people's answers do change, and this is what is being targetted when campaigners are asking people to talk about their mental health.

> There are a weird number of posts here unequivocally saying "the women did it".

I don't see any posts saying that women are responsible for the current condition of men; only ones saying that they are, in some ways, far more privileged in terms of being treated favorably in the average case. Please feel free to link or quote any posts that say "It's specifically only the female part of society that is responsible for this." I am pretty sure they won't be anywhere near the top.

If you asked me, I would say that it is mainly large corporations, political parties, and some educational institutions that cheerlead femininity and demonize masculinity in the hope of getting more votes/sales/students. These can have both male and female components.

> We think that getting men having simple conversations about their mental health will make it easier for them to seek help when they need it.

This is correct. However, you are talking about addressing the symptom, and the so-called MRAs about addressing the cause. You are saying "it is essential to get quinine to malaria victims", and they are saying "there are a lot of disease vectors here, how can we stop them?". It is not at all clear that one view is more valid than the other.

> Why did so many men die from testicular cancer? They do not seek help when they find a lump on a testicle. We had extensive campaigns to get men to see a doctor when they find a lump to help reduce the death rate from testicular cancer.

Did we? I don't recall people wearing anything in support of testicular cancer awareness, but many frequently wear pink ribbons. I also don't really recall a campaign from my childhood, except one (1) occasion when doctors told us (university student) to self-inspect our balls.

Maybe it's better in the US, though.

Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.

Incredibly frustrating that what started as an OK discussion about male social experiences when I went to bed, now has people willing to fundamentally misrepresent the tenor of conversation because it doesn't occur on their terms. You yourself define "MRAs" as those saying "women did it" which didn't seem to be the majority here. (unless not explicitly saying "this is only the fault of men" is equivalent to blaming women)

I'm sure the tide will change though, as people (ie You) seem to be rolling in wanting to have the same go-nowhere internet arguments again and again rather than discuss things on terms outside their comfortable narratives. You're just priming the pot for the conversations you deride. Thanks buddy!

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