Loaded with lead: How gun ranges poison workers and shooters (2014) | Hacker News Reader

Loaded with lead: How gun ranges poison workers and shooters (2014)

projects.seattletimes.com

23 pointsanigbrowl19 comments

This article is a bit misleading. Not all ranges are as badly handled as the one they mention, and many many people just shoot outside.

In addition, the major illustration is pretty much false. Almost all bullets are fully jacketed and not just partially as indicated. There isn't going to be lead from the bullet anywhere except at the backstop at the end of the range. There is a bit of lead in the primer (which weirdly the article fails to mention) but it isn't nearly as much.

From the third article -"At a shooting club in Vancouver, Wash., 20 youngsters tested positive for lead overexposure. ‘We would get lead on our hands and eat finger food,’ one teenager recalls."

Education is key here. I'm not trying to minimize potential risks, but they aren't nearly what this article is projecting. Yes, don't lick your fingers after shooting. At every range I've ever been to, food and drink are prohibited. Wash your hands people.

also from the third article - "While lead poisoning among casual shooters is rare, the risk increases the more they shoot, particularly if it’s in poorly ventilated and maintained ranges."

Happy to agree. only use well maintained and well ventilated ranges, or just shoot outside like most people.

The risk is real, but it's really minimal with a little bit of common sense. Focus on educating people of the actual risks rather than scare mongering like this article.

agree on all points. Even if lead isn't in the mix, its incredibly stupid to lick your fingers after firing a weapon. you get covered with ridiculous amounts of gun powder residue, oils, and god knows what else. its also worth noting that copper isn't exactly healthy in your body either.

One last thing, the map is almost comical. The 'red' on half of those states is due to the fact that those states don't have many in door shooting ranges. I'm pretty sure Montana has like.... ZERO.

Your entire post is minimizing potential risks.

Lead is just so awful - it lowers IQ of children by a very large amount, even in low doses. Why not just ban the stuff in bullets? I don't see the problem with outlawing it. These are clear, super negative externalities. Alternatives exists. Enforcing proper handling of lead bullets seems much more difficult than just banning them.

There is almost nothing that needs to be done to be safe. Wash your hands and clothes. Don't eat or drink while shooting. This just isn't that hard.

There is a tiny contingent that needs to be more aware, and that is the business owners and employees. There's just no reason to massively increase the cost when very simple things like washing your hands fixes the tiny chance of an issue. Don't lick your fingers when they have lead on them.

EDIT: Also the politics in this country disagree with your hypothesis. It would be so much harder to ban lead bullets than for people to wash their hands after they shoot.

I think we should be very conservative with toxins that lower intelligence. At the very least, children should not be allowed in indoor shooting ranges. Were I the Lee Kuan Yew of America, I would still ban lead bullets. Double the cost, seems like a good deal to me.

Our capacity for free choice is implemented in our brains. Libertarians allowing this type of pollution seem pretty self-limiting.

>It would be so much harder to ban lead bullets than for people to wash their hands after they shoot.

Untrue, enforcing the washing of hands would be much harder than banning lead bullets. As there exists alternatives, most people would use them were lead bullets banned. Most people will not change their hand-washing habits. Banning bullets requires inspecting a few manufacturers. Enforcing washing of hands, basically impossible. Educating people to acquire more virtuous habits, ha - a blanket ban is a far easier to implement.

its pretty sad we live in a world where so many people like you wish to have overlords tell us what to do simply because some people have bad habits.

Lead-free ammo is much more expensive, and gun regulation is a politically charged topic. Any attempt to ban lead ammunition will, rightly or wrongly, be perceived as an attempt to discourage recreational shooting by making ammunition less available. Much like California's handgun drop-safety requirement is currently perceived as an attempt to discourage handgun ownership, by making them less available, or Texas' recent abortion regulations are perceived as an attempt to make abortions less available. They're ostensibly regulations enacted for health and safety, but nobody affected by them believes that story.

One of the other arguments is that, because lead is denser, lead ammo flies straighter for a longer distance than non lead alloys. I wish shooters took that as a challenge rather than a limitation.

Name an inexpensive easy to acquire and work metal that would be a good substitute? Should we use gold? How about depleted uranium? Tungsten maybe, but it is spendy and shatters on impact.

> Why not just ban the stuff in bullets?

That would be incredibly regressive since the alternatives are all very expensive. It's also unnecessary because, as mentioned before, safe handling is far easier to achieve than a politically unpopular ban. You also don't really need to "enforce" safe handling beyond air scrubbing systems at indoor ranges.

There are also cases, such as blackpowder shooting and antique firearms, where non-lead projectiles may not be feasible. If I have an oddball caliber antique weapon I can still use it by casting my own lead bullets even if nobody makes commercial ammunition.

This is most definitely piece of fearmongering journalism by a newspaper notorious for promoting an anti civil liberty pro federal agenda... But, it does raise a few good points. Range owners _should_ be aware of lead dangers to employees and follow safety practices. I hope it does raise awareness, but certainly there's no reason to go run for the hills.

What I find most interesting however, is this flies in the face of another anti civil liberty agenda promoted by the BATF. They recently attempted to _ban_ lead free and reduced lead ammunition (aka "green ammo", m885, or "green tip") under the guise it was "armor piercing" (to soft body armor). ...which is laughable because soft body armor can't even hold up to a knife attack.

Sadly, a lot of older indoor ranges are made with the wrong kinds of steel and cannot be certified to have green ammo shot inside them without damage to the structure.

A knife and a bullet are very different beasts in terms of how they penetrate tissue like Kevlar, so your comparison is pointless, and something that resists a bullet need not be stab-proof, simply because they apply very different kinds of pressures and kinetic forces.[1]

Also, I have never heard the term "anti civil liberty agenda" before, especially not as an antonym of "pro federal agenda", so thank you for another facet of what I presume to be American patriotic/conservative/right-wing lingo.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest#Stab_armor_an...

To be fair, rifle bullets whiz through soft (cop) body armor like through cheese. It's a matter of velocity, pistols just don't have the oomph to penetrate, and pretty much all rifles do. The "green tip" ammo mentioned earlier? That's from a rifle cartridge that some states won't let you hunt deer with because it is so under powered.

> Also, I have never heard the term "anti civil liberty agenda" before, especially not as an antonym of "pro federal agenda"

Believing in this so called "anti civil liberties agenda" could be a symptom of lead poisoning...

Just to be clear, the danger is because people handle lead a lot at shooting ranges, and they do violent things to lead that result in it being dispersed as fine particulates into the air, right?

My 60/40 tin/lead mix solder sitting on my electronics workbench is safe sitting there, correct? It's only when actually soldering with it, or touching solder joints made with it, that I'm exposed? I avoid touching myself when soldering, to confine exposure to my hands, and wash them when done (elemental lead such as that in solder is not absorbed through the skin).

Two dozen US states, including California, ban lead bullets, and the US military has announced plans to phase out lead bullets by 2018.

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/21/end-line-for-lead-bulle...

This article is incorrect. Certain states have banned the use of lead bullets in hunting certain animals (waterfowl for example can only be hunted with steel shot), they may still be used at ranges.

I don't have the ability to down vote, so I'll just say I don't car about gun ranges or the people who go to them (as reported on HN or elsewhere).

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