Show HN: Fleetzen – “Uber for moving large items” | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Fleetzen – “Uber for moving large items”

fleetzen.com

55 pointsshettysr52 comments

I have some very serious doubts about this. Uber may be able to skirt the law for transporting people, but if these drivers are acting as commercial haulers, they really probably need both a CDL in the US, and their vehicles need DOT numbers and the service to be registered as a freight broker, as well as everything that comes with that turf. This is one of those things that really is regulated for a good reason. If the DOT's treatment of other people around here skirting around without DOT numbers moving freight commercially is any indication, this probably won't (and shouldn't) end well.

I suspected similar, but did a bit of Googling, and to my surprise it appears a CDL would not be required. The criteria for when you need a CDL seems to be based on inherent characteristics of the vehicle (weight, number of passengers it can carry, for example) rather than on what you do with it or whether or not that is commercial.

Drivers just using ordinary SUVs and pickup trucks and vans appear, on first Google, to be fine with an original drivers license.

Are the individuals moving the things insured? Will they get worker's comp if a refrigerator falls on them?

Mentions screening, driving record etc., but I didn't see anything about this in a quick scan.

Yeah where Uber have been skirting the law because issues usually don't arise with passengers, this is going to plough straight into a whole bunch of them.

Load sizes, damage, loss, personal injury. This is going to be a problem very quickly.

Load sizes, damage, loss, personal injury. This is going to be a problem very quickly.

All of which make this a great opportunity if solved by company.

Not necessarily. Driving a regular sedan, you can easily smash into a person, car full of people, or even a building and do $500k+ worth of damage.

If you have a few packages in your car, each worth a few hundred bucks, you're not significantly more risky for the company underwriting your insurance policy.

So I doubt that a commercial policy for parcel delivery is going to be much more expensive than a personal policy. It's just that the driver would need to get one.

Also, a company like Uber or Fleetzen would be able to keep it cheap by insuring all of their drivers, who would be screened and immediately fired upon having an accident.

When you have a personal policy and never get into an accident, your premiums stay really low. It's when you get into an accident that they skyrocket because people who get in accidents tend to account for a disproportionate share of total accidents. Put another way, if you have never been in an accident, you're unlikely to ever been in one.

Uber and Fleetzen would immediately remove accident-prone people from the risk pool, which would keep the premiums down.

I haven't tried getting commercial transport insurance, but my gut feeling based on moves and mailing items says that insurance claims in moving cargo are way more common than in moving passengers.

With passengers, the only real risk is a traffic accident, which are reasonably rare.

With cargo, traffic accidents are still rare, but it is much more likely for the movers to damage something while loading/unloading or when boxes shift in transit. It's hard to accidentally damage a passenger, while it's easy to drop a TV while carrying it down the stairs.

Perhaps these risks can be minimised if the owner is responsible for loading/unloading and for safe packing of boxes in the truck.

Is Fleetzen registered in Washington and/or with the FCMSA as a freight broker and compliant with all state and federal requirements for brokers?

Are your drivers properly registered and compliant with state and federal requirements for household goods carriers?

If not, what is your rationale for believing Fleetzen and your drivers are exempt from registering and complying with state and federal regulation of carriers and carrier brokers?

This is probably another case of someone (ab)using "regulatory arbitrage" just like Uber, but I think the DOT will clamp down way harder on this (as they really should) if this is the case.

Not to be the cynical one of the bunch but...

1) Become Fleetzen driver in Atherton or Beverly Hills using stolen identity (post my own Criagslist ad soliciting drivers for my fictional startup VanZen asking candidates for all the info that Fleetzen asks for, then just forward the info from an unlucky applicant to Fleetzen to get my driver credentials).

2) Wait for expensive item to be given to me, sell it, and profit.

Am I missing something here?

You're thinking too much.

Far easier to just break into an expensive house, grab jewelry, and fence it. In and out in minutes, none of this potentially traceable internet crap.

That's pretty high risk, while being handed the item isn't. Also theft (failing to deliver said given item to its intended destination) and burglary (breaking in and stealing things) are two entirely different crimes, with burglary carrying a much stiffer sentence in most states because of the potential for violence. The point of my comment was that services like this would be attractive to some criminals.

You are still thinking too much!

I've known a bunch of let's say, less than savoury individuals. The average criminal doesn't plan much, crime is mostly opportunistic. They aren't typically thinking "this is theft vs. burglary and so I'll get a different sentence." They simply just don't think about getting caught in the first place and assume it won't happen.

The criminals who do think about what they are doing will aim for much more profitable behavior, such as targetting a number of homes or businesses all at once.

Then you have to worry about alarms [1], dogs, making sure no one is home, and observant neighbors. His proposal has the victim handing you their goods. Is the reduced risk on that end worth the increased trail you might leave setting it up his way? It's an interesting question.

[1] Even non-expensive houses often have monitored alarms now. I'm about to get one, even though I have absolutely no security need for one, because Comcast will lower my net bill by $50/month, with a two year price lock, if I add their home security package.

Let us know how that goes.

So I work for a startup in Hong Kong doing something like this. We're called GoGoVan, and doing really well in the region

http://gogovan.com.hk/en

What's perhaps different is that with GoGoVan you can ride with your stuff.

(Which resolves some of your worries about security and trust)

We're currently thinking of building our next version in elixir.

And of course we're hiring!

Elixir huh. Great language, but how did you end up choosing it?

So we're a Ruby shop and the backend is all Ruby right now.

But as the company has grown, it's become apparent that what we need to become is a Global Soft-Realtime Logistics Platform.

We could scale with Microservices and Go (something like Hailo in the UK)

But actually, if our most important properties are real-time, and zero-downtime, then Elixir and OTP seem like a great choice.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing a bit about your situation.

Nice website, I like the design!

Thanks. There's actually a new website in the works. The Singapore site is more up to date (and the english is better) http://gogovan.sg

Not having insurance for this utterly terrifies me. I'm absolutely fine with self-insuring the cost of the objects being moved (because you know what your loss is going to be), but if the driver gets injured, or injures someone else, ruh roh -- maybe your homeowners insurance will help?

Also, no idea what the actual parameters are on this. I fairly routinely move >500 pound objects, and if the driver doesn't have the right load handling equipment, it is vastly harder. Even a 100-200 pound load is a lot easier with appliance dollies and straps and ramps.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite leery of using the services of a company that doesn't have a physical address, let alone a phone number, listed on its website. Those two things are dirt cheap nowadays - mailing addresses and phone numbers. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust things like that. Just my two cents.

I'd take an email address that goes to someone who can help instead of a phone number that goes to someone in a call center reading from a script any day. And a mailing address? I can't remember the last time one was useful for interacting with a company.

I'm guessing it's more from the standpoint of "what address do we serve you papers at".

That's a good part of it, yes. Without a service of process address, how can anyone be certain this is a legitimate company?

It has little to do with customer support, and everything with being able to feel like you're dealing with a real company and not someone who does this part time from his/her basement. Especially for services like this one where liability is an issue.

People don't want an option for tips. Then it will bother their conscience if they don't.

Exactly - that's the point. Same reason Square / Grubhub / most other mobile checkout options usually default to the 2nd lowest tip amount. You need to psychologically be okay with being less generous to move it to 0. Most are too guilt-ridden to move it to 0 so that the server / delivery driver still gets some compensation.

You can have zero percent tips, and still have the server/delivery driver get some compensation. E.g. a mandatory, fixed 10% tip is no different to a 0% tip where the sever/delivery driver's "tip" is incorporated into the bill.

The nice thing about a fixed/zero tip is that there is no tax on being "nice" and no subsidy for "assholes".

That is an interesting insight on the customer behavior. In our current design we have set the default at 5% (mostly with an intention of providing a visual hint of a tip in the bill and expecting customer to change) and are seeing lot of customers don't change it to anything else most of the times. On the other side we have seen that the customers, who decide to tip in cash, slide this to 0 and pay as high as 25% of the invoice at times.

Please tell me you didn't really expect people to change the default!!???

Yes they do. When someone is carefully carrying a large item around your house many want the option to tip. Default it to 0.00 and communicate that it's not expected. Like Lyft.

It might be me, but it took me a minute to see the link for what cities you cover. You might want to make that more prominent and you should definitely have an email signup form to alert me when you come to my area (DC). It's worth it for the ability to track interest alone.

Pretty weird to see the exact same baseline than https://www.buddytruk.com/

There was a story on HN about a month ago saying Texas was cracking down on these illegal freight hauling startups.

The website gets an F on the ssllabs.com SSL Test:

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=fleetzen.com

They're using the Amazon Linux AMI (2014.09 most likely). It might be the default Apache config that ships with it, since it's super terrible. The F could be easily fixed with a slightly revised cipher suite list, but it would still be pretty low from all of the other problems.

I think their is definitely a market for this. My question is, isn't Uber doing this already & has much more sophisticated logistics infrastructure in place? Uber Pool (future potential) = efficient pickup of parcels / deliver - on-demand.

Uber's only UI is their app. Their app will never be optimized for renting trucks. Thus, fleetzen will have a permanent advantage here that will only increase if reinforced with an advantage in terms of the availability of drivers.

> Uber's only UI is their app. There app will never be optimized for renting trucks.

First of all, you're wrong. Uber also has an API, which is for another kind of user, but it's still an interface that enables selected developers to access all of their functionality.

Second, what makes you think Uber couldn't create a new app that connects to the same backend in under a month? There is no such thing as "permanent advantage" (or some companies would live forever), and there sure as hell is no such thing as an advantage based on UI.

> there sure as hell is no such thing as an advantage based on UI

I agree with the first part of your post, but... I have quit all kinds of services for a competitor because of a shitty UI. Now that being said, I think having (and not being able to escape) a shitty UI is symptomatic of more intrinsic problems. But there is a business advantage.

How is that different from Dolly?

You screenshot shows tax - how is this calculated? Do service fees typically require tax, or are you paying some sort of municipal fees? (Sales tax is only applied to sales of products, correct?)

Some states tax both goods and services (ex. Hawaii, New Mexico, South Dakota).

According to the site though the app is only live in Seattle.

Pretty sure Uber is going to be the Uber for moving large items.

I happened to look for "uber moving Nashville" (my city) and it looks like Uber has partnered with a company called Bellhops to do just that. So, yup, they either do it directly or indirectly.

We did look into that. Bellhops provides packing/moving personnel (mostly students) but no vehicle. Think of them as professional apartment/house moving helpers (they don't cal themselves movers by the way). You need to procure the vehicle. Uber just enables the interaction between you and the bellhop. Fleetzen will dispatch a helper plus pickup truck in real time to location of your choice (think IKEA, Home Depot, Craigslist purchase etc.,)

That refund policy though?

Thanks for the lively discussions. I am the co-founder of fleetzen. We are a two-person startup that went live about 4 weeks back and now we are in the process of operationalizing it. Like many of you have mentioned we have a long list of operational and technical challenges to consider and address and I really appreciate you for the time and thoughts.

As a business we create value for three main constituents.

For customers – The core experience we want to deliver is that a driver/helper with a vehicle is available at the pickup location in less than 30 minutes, on-demand, regardless of the source of request (be it stores, Craigslist, an estate sale, or an apartment etc.,) and we want to offer the service at a competitive price. They no longer have to ask favors from their friends or wait for days for the stores to deliver, or drive to rental places such as U-Haul. It will be a “cab” like experience for moving stuff. It is convenient, saves ton of time and less expensive than other alternatives.

For drivers – A 2nd or 3rd job, an opportunity to make some additional income while doing some of the similar work that they used to do for free or as favors in the past. They are not the cab drivers who wait around the block. We do envision a world where, if we are successful in generating volume, they might wait around the block which could cut down our time to arrival. But we are long away from getting there.

Businesses - The direct effect of the above to the businesses and sellers is that, goods clear the shop floors faster with little to no overhead to them and probably increased sales.

Let me try to address some of the comments below.

CDL: As tzs mentioned our drivers do not need CDL to provide services. Washington state DOL has a nice flowchart at http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/cdlrequired.html that can help you understand how we meet this requirement. We do not carry super heavy goods and most of the items can be carried by two people (just like you and your buddy would). Pickups are not designed to carry loads that breaches this criteria.

Insurance: I cannot probably cover all the aspects of this subject here. We are in the process of procuring insurance for the Cargo that our drivers carry and it will meet or beat the state requirements. As some of you have mentioned the damage to the goods is likely and we will be able to address it. What separates us from likes of Uber in terms of liability is that we do not let the customers ride with the drivers. If we did, it will put us in a whole different category of transport (a taxi) and liability exposure. Basically we do not expose customers to any accidents on the road. For these reasons we are less risky from insurance company stand point.

Trust: Chance of drivers stealing customer’s stuff is highly unlikely. The drivers go though a rigorous background check (criminal plus driving history) and we ensure that there is nothing in their past that could be damaging to the customers or to fleetzen as a brand. They are as trustworthy as any outsourced help you hire. In addition we review the driver performance on a regular basis.

Permits/registration etc.,: Fleetzen, in it’s current form, is a “buddy with the truck” concept. The drivers are not movers per se. They do not provide any packing services etc.,. When customer books the service, they get a vehicle and one driver/helper. We are relying on the requirements listed at http://app.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=480-15-181 that exempts them from needing a household goods permit. It is essentially a customer assisted move. That is one way we are able to provide a great experience at a competitive price. We have business license to operate in Washington and we are Delaware corporation.

About Uber: Never even for once we think that Uber cannot roll-out something similar to fleetzen and crush us. They have the resources (financial and technical :)). They have an incredible infrastructure that can reach a customer in matter of 5 minutes and that is enabling them to unlock plethora of customer scenarios. Most of their “non-car” based offerings (ice cream trucks, mariachi bands, pets etc.,) have all been delivered through partnerships. The closest they have come to moving is when they partnered with Bellhops, who only provide muscles for your moving needs. As far as we know the market for large item delivery using an Uber like model is still in it’s early stages with few other players including us are trying to solve.

Technical recommendations: Thanks for the suggestions on SSL, email, tips. We will look into it.

Contacts: We are a registered Delaware corp with address at 701 5th Ave, STE 4200 Seattle. Our toll free number is 1-844-329-3299

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