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Comment by eli_gottlieb | Hacker News Reader

>I think there should be a distinction between a country that kills and tortures millions and one that does not. So, why again should we forgive the debts of those responsible for killing and torturing millions, but not those of a country who has done nothing comparable?

Because the Treaty of Versailles was tried the first time, to penalize Germany with onerous debts for starting WW1, and WW2 was the direct result. After WW2, the Allied occupiers weren't thinking, "How can we penalize Germany?", they were thinking, "How can we prevent another damned war!?".

Unfortunately, this time people are still thinking, "How can we penalize Greece?", as if that will help the EU at all in the future.

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And austerity has been shown to be a remarkable failure for any form of economic recovery not just the first, but pretty much every time any country has tried it

Why would you try it on Greece then?

How would you define austerity for the Greece? To have public spending at 58% of GDP?

If your economy collapses, partially because of global recession and partially due to corruption enabled by cheap foreign money looking for a quick buck, your GDP ratios all look worse all of a sudden.

I'd define it as me paying 90% taxes last year, while my country is still getting worse.

Austerity isn't about rising taxes, as much, as about lowering government costs.

But they are thinking "how can we prevent this again?" with respect to Greece - for example measures against corruption, unaffordable levels of welfare, and high tax avoidance. Without those measures, if they just hand over money with no strings attached, it will just be kicking the can down the road.

No, they're thinking "How much money can we rescue tomorrow."

And that's all they're thinking.

Piketty is right - it's atrategic idiocy of the first order.

As for tax avoidance - some countries, including the UK, have based significant sectors of their economy on tax avoidance.

In the same way that it's immensely hypocritical of Germany to lecture Greece on debt, it's equally hypocritical of the Eurozone to lecture Greece on tax avoidance, when the bankers and corporates know damn well that if they weren't avoiding taxation at least as aggressively, austerity would be completely unnecessary.

But of course they mean tax avoidance by working class people, which is a very bad thing, and not tax avoidance by corporations, banks, and oligarchs, which is a very good thing.

It's this kind of twisted self-serving nonsense that has created the situation in Greece. Sovereign debt is a symptom of much deeper problems, not a final cause.

A little from column A, a little from column B. Of course creditors are after their money, that's what loans are for. And anti-corruption measures do have the ability to work well.

For example, during the early 90s, Australia had a recession. Due to this recession, more stringent banking laws were introduced. Fast forward to the GFC, and the entire globe is running for cover. The Australia dollar tanked because everyone thought that the economy would die and the banks would collapse. On the contrary, due to the tightened banking laws, the 'big four' Australian banks all kept their credit rating. All of them. At a time when most banks were slipping.

Times of national pain like this are the times to slip in significant reform. Greece has an endemic corruption problem, and independent of anything else, this is a good excuse to 'stop the rot'. Or we could just point fingers everywhere, make it no-one's problem and no-one's responsibility, and not progress at all.

And if you've been watching the news lately, the big economies are all looking at ways to counter tax avoidance by corporations, as it's a significant problem. It's a complete misrepresentation to say that there's no concern or effort being made there.

Australia was bailed out in the financial crisis by high and rising commodity prices, and the banks are supported by a massive house price boom.

> In the same way that it's immensely hypocritical of Germany to lecture Greece on debt, it's equally hypocritical of the Eurozone to lecture Greece on tax avoidance, when the bankers and corporates know damn well that if they weren't avoiding taxation at least as aggressively, austerity would be completely unnecessary.

Especially with the head tax avoidance manager at his head, Jean-Claude Juncker.

That said, my understanding is that there are real issues with the Greek state - not only cronyism and corruption, but lack of fundamental mechanisms like a proper welfare system or a cadastre. These issues need to be addressed, but seems at odds with the creditors' obsession with slashing public spending at all costs.

I also agree with Piketty about the way the crisis served to highlight systemic issues in the EU. Unfortunately, EU leaders appear completely unwilling to address them, apparently pretending nothing is wrong is much easier.

Indeed, the Greek government has many problems to solve, but many require investment. Rooting out corruption costs money and is hard to do in a crisis where you may not be able to pay your bills at all from day to day.

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