Standing Desks – Save your back, change your life | Hacker News Reader

Standing Desks – Save your back, change your life

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49 pointswlscaudill80 comments

Thanks for the nice post. I'm already a convert. I was suffering from some neck pain issues, which have gone away. In fact I'm kinda the "standing desk guy" at my workplace.

Here's the remaining problem. I work in an open-plan office area, I've got a desk that can be raised and lowered. But my desk is next to a hallway with a lot of traffic.

When I'm standing to work, I'm face to face with a colleague who is very curious about what I do, and likes to get into conversations. And I think that because I'm standing up, everybody who walks buy thinks that I am the receptionist for my entire work group: "Is Bill here today? Do you know if Steve went to his meeting? When does Chris usually come in?"

And when someone comes to ask me a legitimate question, all of my colleagues feel free to join the discussion, sometimes answering my question -- wrong -- before I can get a word in edgewise.

These are more open-office issues than standing-desk issues, but I'm just offering a warning that y'all in open plan offices may have some additional issues to contend with when you switch to a standing desk.

Style-wise, I'd love to have one of those gray metal foreman's desks that they had in old the fashioned factories.

Have you thought about getting a screen (like one for changing clothes) to put between your desk and the hallway?

Very sad that this is a measure employees need to consider in the modern workplace.

My neck pain went away when I lowered my chair and uppered my screen so the line of eyes is in the middle of screen space.

Do you wear headphones? That might help.

They are a distraction for me. I'm a musician, and if I hear music, I analyze it. Also, I don't want to damage my hearing.

Safety ear muffs might be an alternative, especially since their purpose would be obvious.

Have you considered wearing some and not listening to anything? Just as a purely signaling device?

Does your office culture respect headphones as a request to not be interrupted? Hunting earmuffs are useful if you don't want to actually listen to music. I've used http://smile.amazon.com/3M-Peltor-H10A-Optime-Earmuff/dp/B00... off and on for almost 3.5 years and they're comfortable for hours at a time and block most noise very effectively.

Right now my office culture respects pretty much nothing. Mine is the second work group to have an open plan, ever. The open plan was chosen for us because Collaboration [1]. So, we are the pioneers. My boss is sympathetic about this, but we are both treading the political waters carefully. When the entourage of managers brings an Executive through the facility on the obligatory inspection tour, they always come down my hallway and are shown the Open Collaboration Area. It has been declared to be a success, by default.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy about my job, and have places where I can go when I need to think. I use my "office" as a lab.

[1] The open plan seems to work for some kinds of collaboration and not other kinds. It's great for social interaction, brainstorming, and quickly getting help. I think it's helped the newer employees come up to speed and develop internal networks more quickly.

It doesn't work for more substantive collaboration, especially crossing multiple departments and work sites, because many kinds of discussions can't be conducted in front of an audience.

Chatting with managers, I've noticed a strong misconception, that manager work needs private offices, and engineer work doesn't.

My current favoured solution:

1. Take any desk

2. Put an Ergotron WorkFit T on it.

It's this: http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/915/l...

The neat things about it: it raises straight up and down, it's cheap, it fits any standard desk, it accounts for keyboard, it's highly stable.

It just works, and it's so cheap that it's the go-to solution.

Are you using it?

At home yes, used to have the the Workfit model with the sloped central stand (mentioned in the article).

This one is better as the keyboard tray doesn't come forward of the desk, the position doesn't move forward and backwards with height raise/lower, and it is more stable.

This is what we're going to be using for those who want sit/stand desks in the CloudFlare London office in a month or so when we move office.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

I know someone with a VariDesk which is similar and they like it very much. Thanks for sharing the info on the new Ergotron one!

Product pages without the price makes me think I can't afford their prices.

Last time I encountered that was an Aeron chair. As much as I'd love one, I can't justify dropping £800 on a chair nor would I be able to persuade my boss.

$399 from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Ergotron-Sit-Stand-Desktop-Workstation...

(non-aff link)

Seems like you should use an affiliate link if you have the product and genuinely like it...

I'm in the UK, which look like they're roughly £300 instead, and at that price I'd not be able to justify the cost to my boss if I wanted to use it at work.

Yes, I know, it's "only" a week of salary, but that's not how I've experienced office budgets to work. There isn't an "Oh ok it's cheap compared to you" argument you can make that means you get to spend £300 on a desk when others are still using single 17" monitors. I'm sure start-ups play by different rules, but at established SME businesses I've worked at it's difficult to get things which cost that much without a lot of long-term effort directed toward that goal, and there are higher priorities for that kind of effort (and higher priorities for the office supply budget).

That price range probably does mean that if I come to own my own study I can justify buying one myself, so thanks for the recommendation.

Are you near or in London? Apply for a job at CloudFlare, we'll give you the tools and environment to do the job. There's a link at the bottom of our web page to current positions, if anything looks suitable do apply.

Is ~$400 cheap? I agree it looks like a well-thought-out solution.

When the article's 2nd option is an ugly hack and comes out as over $400, and you probably already have a desk and this works better and looks better... I'd say it was a damn good price.

From my research $400 is a very good price. This isn't mobile from room to room like the cart is. Everything has it's tradeoffs...

it's not that cheap for you see there. Think about it. Do those parts really look like they are worth more than say $65. They shoudl sell it for about $180 absolute max. It doesn't look like it takes a lot of weight either. You can get a hand crank sit stand desk on amazon for about the same price. Cheap or nice piece of wood for the top at 25 bucks and you're all set.

~$400 is cheaper than a real standing desk but not that much.

I just got this delievered today, I place my keyboard and mouse on it, and tilt my monitors up. $40

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EWQ34ZG?psc=1&redirect=t... I even saw some solutions for $30+. This looked very wide enough for keyboard and mouse. So far so good, if it holds up well, I'll buy 2 more. One for laptop, and another room.

I it works for you, fine, but I think the standing desk is more of a trendy/cool thing:

http://www.fitdeskjockey.com/7-reasons-why-you-dont-want-a-s...

Agreed. My doctor said to me that a lot of people raving about standing desks in their 20s will have serious regrets about them in their 50s. He also said that being seated but moving around for a few minutes every hour was fine, which is a similar point to that made in the article - standing still for an hour is just as inactive as sitting still for an hour.

> standing still for an hour is just as inactive as sitting still for an hour.

That's not true. Everything I have read about it says that standing burns more calories. I notice that I shift my weight and move my legs, etc, when I am standing. It's marginal, but there is definitely a difference.

I'm no health expert, so take what I say with a pinch of (low-sodium) salt. However, it does seem to me that the amount of calories you burn standing up for a few hours is not going to make much difference to your health.

I've had less back pain since I started standing at work, and I've heard many similar stories.

You can also "walk in place" to get the heart rate up. Good luck doing that in a chair.

Lots of swaying helps keep everything loose as well as keeping focused on using the leg muscles to support yourself instead of relaxing and letting the cartilage do all the work which is the only real concern I've come across for a standing desk.

You're correct, unless you use a treadmill desk or you're one of those people who can't sit still and bounce around while they type (like me!). Just because you're standing doesn't mean you have to be a statue.

There's something else to consider though: lipoprotein lipase. It's generated in large amounts by your leg muscles and is used to break down fat into energy. Sitting causes a steady decrease in lipoprotein lipase production in your legs. The longer you sit, the less lipase you produce.

At that point, losing weight becomes extremely difficult and you start craving sugar for energy. There's a theory of weight management that people who don't gain body fat manage it because, throughout any given day, your insulin levels go up and down, you store a little fat then you burn a little fat. The ability of your body to switch back and forth between burning sugar and fat is called metabolic flexibility. Sitting destroys that flexibility.

Maybe it's not about calories or even being active. Maybe it's about perspective.

When I'm standing (or even better walking), I tend to have a much more "knock out the open issues" mentality. It's not a panacea, when I need to think deeply about something sitting down to do it is preferable. But the change in perspective you get from standing up can be as important as any health benefits.

Personally I wish I could do more of my meetings walking around the green areas around my office or home.

That should probably be titled "7 Reasaons Why You Don't Want A Static Standing Desk"

Before the actual article content, it shows 17 ads for standing desks then a huge infographic on why sitting is bad. It's literally 90% down the page until the article starts. here are the reasons:

1. Cost – Cost is definitely a concern for many people and businesses alike. The simple truth is that the cost of your stand up desk could be as little $20.00 to as much as $1,500.00 for one of the adjustable electric models. The geniuses over at Ikeahackers.net have a do it yourself plan that costs as right around $29, that is still quite sleek and professional in appearance. Another option that helps to reduce the cost for a company is one that my own employer actually adopted. They purchased one standing work station for each department. If an employee feels like standing up and working for awhile they simply walk over to an open station and log-in to the network for an hour or so. For an employer this is a great way to introduce the concept to see how it’s received, while controlling costs.

2. Long Days – Most people work at least 8 hours per day, and that’s a significant amount of time to be on your feet. As the son of a pharmacist, a profession that used stand up desk long before they were cool, I can assure you that long days on your feet can lead to socks that even the family dog runs away from. Spending 8 to 10 hours standing can do a number on your body, especially if you’re not used to physical activity, and that can cause new aches and pains.

3. Foot Pain/Soreness – One of the top complaints of people who’ve tried a standing desk is that their feet were extremely sore the next day. A pair of shoes that are pleasantly comfortable for sitting all day can start feeling like evil little pin cushions when you give them some real use. My suggestion is that you combat this in two ways. First, be sure to at least bring a pair of comfortable shoes with you to work that you can use while you are in the standing position. Secondly, you may want to spring for a padded floor mat, which adds an additional layer of cushion.

4. Back Pain – Oddly enough one of the reasons many give for adopting a standing workstation is because of back pain that they believe is caused by working seated at a computer for so long. The simple truth is that any workstation that is not set up properly can and often will cause you to experience pain of some sort. Many people who I’ve talked with have reported more back pain after switching to a standing desk configuration. Remaining stationary in either the sitting position or the standing position causes constant loading on the lower back. Research has shown that standing in the same position for longer than 30 minutes may cause back pain, a reduction circulation, and increased risk for cardiovascular disease (see #7 below).

5. Lack of Privacy – One of the benefits of a standing workstation is that it allows you to converse and collaborate with coworkers more easily. Of course, this also means that you lose a certain element of privacy when more people are able to both see and hear you, and you’re also more likely be blasted by the phone calls and conversations of others.

6. Less Focus – Any of the above concerns can lead to a reduced level of focus. In fact one of the concerns employers often have when it comes to standing desks is not whether or not the change will improve performance, but whether it will kill performance completely.

7. You’re Still Inactive – Even if you adopt a standing work station and it works out wonderfully for you, you’re just an inactive standing desk jockey instead of a sitting one. One of the keys to feeling less aches and pains, as well as avoiding the increased risks that plague the sedentary worker, is to become more active throughout your workday. Dr William Haskell of Stanford calculates that simply taking 2 minutes out of every hour to walk and fill your water bottle, or talking with a co-worker down the hall, or running an errand can help you avoid gaining the caloric equivalent of 11 pounds over a decade!

Here's a prior HN discussion on affordable standing desks that I have in my notes:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8552613

I question his choice of keyboards. Most keyboards use cheap rubber dome switches and not mechanical ones. People will spend a lot of money on a good keyboard like this Kickstarter project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01...

...or build their own like an ErgoDox:

http://www.ergodox.org

This StackOverFlow sister site question illustrates several mechanical switches: http://superuser.com/questions/366221/differences-between-ch...

IKEA also sells height-adjustable desks in some (most?) countries. I have one at home and are very pleased.

Dito. I have the Bekant (160cm * 80cm and adujstable height between 65cm and 125cm) at home which costs around 550 usd where I live (20% tax already included) and has 10 years warranty (most a lot more expensive desks have only 2-3 years). I can sit and stand at the desk but I sometimes use a sports trampoline for mild jumping or a treadmill to walk at the desk (like linus torvalds). [1]

Some studies suggest a 8 hour workday should consist of 60% sitting, 20% standing and 20% walking (no link at hand since I'm not at my regular pc).

In some countries Ikea has an even more affordable sit-stand desk called Skarsta. [2]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSgUPqygAww [2] http://www.ikea.com/jo/en/catalog/products/S29084966/

Thanks for comment, I didn't know about the Kickstarter Keyboard (I just backed it). I have to use a split keyboard to avoid wrist pain so my options are very limited. If this isn't an issue for you then the Das Keyboard is very nice in my opinion.

The problem is there's no good ergo layouts with mechanical switches. Something like the MS Ergo 4000 or Sculpt, with Cherry MXes.

Closest I've found is the Matias Ergo Pro[1], but it has several inexplicably bad design decisions. Dedicated Copy paste undo buttons, that just send ctrl-z,x,c,v. Awkward positioning of Ctrl and Escape for no reason. Terrible crappy little arrow keys. Really weird shit like having a USB hub, then putting the port on the inside with no space to plug things in. After using it for a month, I'm still often making mistakes and will probably go back to the MS Sculpt, which at least has scissor switches instead of the terrible domes.

It's like every keyboard designer to do ergo has had a stroke and intentionally messes stuff up. Kinesis is stuck in the 90s with their huge success and terrible look (and again, weird layout). The Keyboardio is probably the least offensive, as long as the modifier key system is smooth. It's stupid that in 2015 we still don't have great keyboards. The stackoverflow guy's CODE keyboard even focused on backlights. Who the hell is spending $100+ on keyboards and can't touch type? Strange market I suppose.

1: http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/

Scissor switches always bottom out, which is unhealthy:

"Key Travel Distance: Scissor-switch membrane keyswitches are not 'full-travel' and typically have a key travel distance of 1 - 2.5 mm as compared to 2.5 - 4 mm for memrance keyboards. As such, when typing on these keyboards it is almost impossible to prevent 'bottoming"

http://www.ergopedia.ca/ergonomic_concepts/Mechanical_Keyswi...

The ErgoDox seems good, but I don't want to build my own. Afraid I'll screw it up. :-(

That may be, but I feel much less fatigue using scissors than the membrane domes. At least comparing the MS Ergo 4000 vs Sculpt. The new switches on the ThinkPad X series tire me out more than the IBM style, though.

ErgoDox has a fundraiser for a preassembled version. They've raised nearly $100K. [1]. Which is funny because a manufacturer was telling me how expensive it was to make keyboards and so on, that they'd need like $70K. OTOH the ErgoDox isn't really standard; people must be desperate.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-...

ErgoDox moves several keys like Enter to the thumbs. The thumb layout matches the Kinesis Advantage: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Kinesis_Contoured_Keyboard_Classic_...

The Kickstarter Model 01 does the same thing with a different layout: http://www.keyboard.io

I completely agree, after a small bout of CTS / tendinitis I switched to the original MS natural keyboard and it's still going strong at home for 20 (!) years now.

At work I ended up with a natural keyboard 4000, which has a layout nearly as good as the original, and much better than the other various iterations that happened in the meantime with non-standard cursor or pgup/down cluster keys.

I would be completely willing to spend a few hundred dollars on a keyboard with mechanical switches in that exact layout but of course usb and with a bunch of extra keys to xmodmap as needed (say, like the as/400 keyboards) but there aren't any to be had in the market.

It would be even more amazing to have a natural keyboard with mechanical switches and oled keys, but who knows if that will ever happen.

Yes. 24 function keys would be a start, plus some more down the left-hand side. Maybe a 3-state numlock, whereby you could get ten more from the numpad.

But, no. It appears the way to make the keyboard more useful is not to give people more keys, nor even just to give them the same set they're used to, but to take them away, and then shuffle around the ones that are left.

Funny... you'd think that for an activity that relies on muscle memory - such as, say, typing - this would be exactly the sort of thing that people would be paying a bit more attention to not doing.

Maybe it's supposed to be some kind of vendor lock-in strategy. One of those vendor lock-in strategies that even Microsoft feels would be a step too far.

Have you tried the Kinesis Advantage? For typing, I haven't had a better experience.

Can second that. The only thing I dont like are the crappy function keys, but that will hopefully be fixed by the next version that is finally in the works. [1] I use it in combination with the neo layout which I find really comfortable. [2]

[1] http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36195.0 [2] http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=htt...

Disappointing to hear of all the setbacks; though. I hope it'll be available by next year, if not I may end up investing in a KeyMouse, depending on how it's received.

Oh, didn't know about KeyMouse, looks interesting. A litle bit like a DataHand. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand

I have not. The design and size put me off. Plus I really want to avoid a different key layout, as it raises my error rate (and hand stress). This is important because I move about and sometimes use a laptop keyboard.

But maybe I'll have to give it a shot. I just don't see what's so hard about taking a normal ergo keyboard and making it with proper switches.

I'm curious if this is simply some silly patent issue where people would make it but MS or Logitech owns a patent that is preventing it without significant modification...

If you need to be mobile then it may not be a great choice; it's pretty cumbersome. I've been looking at the Matias Ergo Pro which looks like a better choice for someone on the go. However, I think the layout is just something that requires a bit of getting used to; after about a month I got really used to it and switching back and forth has gotten easier with use of both it and a standard keyboard.

Additionally, not sure if it matters to you, but it is terrible for gaming.

I appreciate the sentiment of this blog post, but wow, those are some seriously ugly creations to have to look at all day.

I need to update the pictures of the IKEA desk and cart as they don't look too bad. The mobile desk on the other hand is not all that pretty but it's a work in progress and should get better over time... "Functional first, sexy second!" I'll suffer an ugly desk that allows me to fly anywhere on the planet and work comfortably enough.

We do an open source one you can make yourself https://www.opendesk.cc/lean/standing-desk

Still wanting to see a design for a height adjustable sit/standing desk.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6234588

The standing desk is sit / stand height adjustable.

It is quite heavy, realistically taking two people to adjust, so you wouldn't normally adjust it too often but it has three heights: standing, bar and sitting, as outlined in the description.

I've got a sort of wacky treadmill desk setup in my basement. Got a cheap treadmill off of Craigslist for like $200, spent maybe $15 on a simple shelf board and a piece of foam I cut up to get the shelf at the right height, and I got the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard and Logitech M570 trackball mouse, both are amazing.

I don't walk constantly, but it's a fantastic setup.

Pretty much exactly what I did, $25 treadmill at a yard sale, lay a board across the arms for a "desk", have a shelf mounted on the wall above the treadmill console for my monitor and hook the laptop up to a wireless keyboard/mouse set.

Standing Desks—replace one set of health problems with a different set.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm debating whether or not I should get one.

Get something like a Varidesk that allows you to put it up/down and is affordable. There's been studies that varicose veins and things of that nature in your legs happen if you stand up all day long.

Sit-stand desk is probably the best with the information we currently have.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of-sitting... http://vuir.vu.edu.au/21403/1/Van_Uffelen_Occupational_sitti...

Like everything in life, moderation is the key. If you are getting up and down from your desk regularly anyway then the health benefits wouldn't be very large. Standing all day isn't particularly good for you either.

I believe the science is still out on this. My main issue with the current studies is that the occupations are different. For instance, what is the difference in stress between a GP and an accountant? As far as I'm aware, there haven't been any studies that compare mortality that control for the 'same occupation'. The studies thus-far have only shown that people who have occupations that require standing tend to have lower all-cause mortality than those whose occupations usually involve sitting. If there is such a study then I’m interested in reading it.

"I believe the science is still out on this."

As near as I can tell, the science verges on non-existant... there's a few studies that sample a smidge of the space, but nowhere near enough to draw very interesting conclusions.

Standing desks seem to help, at least in the short term, but the question is, why? If, for instance, they help because the people in the study are, well, average Americans, and the standing desks help develop core muscle strength, yes, that will improve their lives. But if it is about that, then you could probably do much better with much less effort by directly performing exercises that strengthen your core, without incurring the risk of knee damage from a standing desk. And of course if standing is good for some other reason, that won't help the problems at all. As near as I can tell, science has nothing to say about this particular rather simple question yet. We have roughly one point in the relevant space and a whole bunch of people drawing a lot of lines through it very excitedly based on biases and preconceived notions, but nowhere near enough data. Or, basically, business as usual in the world of health and fitness. (Sadly.)

Personally I focus on strength training directly and leave the standing desk issue aside. YMMV. (Which I mean seriously. Like it or not, you have to put your chips down based on what you know now, not the science of 2060.) Let's all get together and compare notes in 30 years.

Great comment, personally I do rock climbing and Ashtanga yoga for my core strengthening and I agree that you should work on improved overall strength. A big win on the standing desk is the allowance of high amounts of movement (especially when very focused on the screen). Things like the SI joints and the sacrum which get zero movement from sitting. Lots of swaying helps keep everything loose as well as keeping focused on using the leg muscles to support yourself instead of relaxing and letting the cartilage do all the work.

I agree with you completely.

I said "I believe the science is still out on this" because I personally haven't found anything conclusive myself. Until I find evidence one way or the other I'm not inclined to take a strong opinion on it. So far the best argument for sit-stand desks seems to be "sitting is 'going to kill you faster than smoking' so standing must be better". Correlation != causation... I'm much more inclined to believe this is just a spurious correlation...

Yeah, a height adjustable desk which allows to switch between sitting and standing is the way to go.

I use an adjustable height desk as well and find the variety to be nice. That said, I still do need to make a conscious effort to not have bad posture even when standing.

There are a lot of great adjustable height desks available in a number of price points: http://officesnapshots.com/2012/08/24/7-adjustable-height-de...

Tried standing desk for a while, imo something that should also be done is film yourself standing for a period of time so you can tell if your standing posture is correct; if you're standing the wrong way then it's pretty much useless

Good article. I just submitted a similar one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9873773 . I use a GeekDesk: http://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-des... and wouldn't go back to a normal desk if I could at all avoid it.

I use the now discontinued Ikea Fjus shelf unit (https://samnangp.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/ikea-shelf-project...; now available as a Gorm, Hejne or Ivar, all of which have one less shelf) which I have adjusted. One shelf is my external keyboard tray, another shelf is my macbook support, at eye level. $30 standing desk.

I've found if you work from home getting a dog does wonders.

I no longer can sit for any major length of time since he wants to go out and play at least every hour during the day. It's amazing how much better things got all around both mentally and physically taking those 'dog breaks'.

What about the feet? You'll start having problems associated with long standing hours[1]?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_complications_of_sta...

I put one in at home, and work from home more now. The one thing that isn't the standing desk that makes it work, that is also mentioned in the article, is a wireless headset. Without it, that desk would be a total pain in the ass to work at.

I've been using this one in the office for some time and it's really comfortable and visually pleasing as well: http://biurkobiurko.com/

these look pretty nice.

Dang - I spent nearly $1000 on mine UpliftDesk. This could've saved me a ton. Beauty is if you pack your bags and work remote from some other geography you can take this sucker with you - amazing!

There is one question though, what about varicose veins forming in legs due to prolonged standing?

Lots of swaying and occasionally stepping back and fourth a few times is important and will keep the blood moving which combats things like varicose veins. There is no substitute for taking breaks and getting a good walk in...

Really appreciate the level of detail of this blog post. Thank you!

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