Ask HN: is it ethical to copy ideas from a similar site? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: is it ethical to copy ideas from a similar site?

27 pointsalain9404023 comments

I need the advice of the HN community: a few days ago, a site similar to ours came up with a much nicer web interface and flashy Ajax. It made some shortcomings of our site very clear. So we re-implemented our key page, clearly inspired by this other site.

You can judge for yourself: the site that inspired us is http://www.builditwith.me . Our old page is here: http://fairsoftware.net/publicProjects and our new implementation here: http://fairsoftware.net/startup-ideas-find-co-founders.

I initially tried to contact the author of BuiltItWithMe to see if they would like to share or discuss, but didn't hear back after several days.

I believe in transparency and openness, but I'd really like to hear the opinion of people on HN. What is the right thing to do? I wouldn't want the other guys to believe that we are stealing from them (I'm pretty sure that we aren't, legally speaking). I don't think there should be any hard feelings. Am I just naive? Where do you draw the line, when you hold yourself to higher standards than just "anything goes on the Internet as long as you can get away with it?" Asking for permission doesn't seem practical. What else?

Thanks! (I'm somewhat optimistic based on the recent comments on http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=989120)

It's fine to steal interface ideas. However, I think you took a step backwards in doing so. Yes, what you had wasn't very good. However, what you have now is even worse. Your original implementation was on the right track and just needed some refinement.

I agree, the old version gave more information on what positions were needed at a glance and was a bit more clear...

I don't think its unethical at all.

I think you did more than most would in trying to contact the buildItWith me guys and that is certainly commendable.

I also don't think there is any confusion between the two products(From a look and feel perspective) so no harm no foul. The internet is filled with people taking "inspiration" from other sites and products. This can be evidenced simply by the number of websites that look like http://www.campaignmonitor.com .

Blatantly copying is a bad idea. Understanding why they're different, and figuring out the motivations behind their (different) choices and then reflecting on the choices you've made for your product is a good idea.

Jason F at 37Signals wrote about this a while back: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1561-why-you-shouldnt-copy-us...

Yes, it's called competing.

And someone will eventually do the same to you. Be flattered when it happens.

From a philosophical standpoint, I don't think you were wrong to borrow interface ideas.

(I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds to say though, that while copying some of their better ideas, I think you may have also copied some of their worse ideas. The way scrolling works on both sites is very confusing -- your original site was better in that regard. )

I agree about the scrolling problems. I can't see the entire description for an app because I can't move anything in that panel on the right. I can zoom out to view all the text, but then it's too tiny to read.

Honestly, I think your (original) site looks better.

It (updated site) has a similar layout, but that's about it. You didn't copy their look, maybe their layout. But if you asked someone on the street, I doubt there would be any confusion.

edited: in parentheses to clarify

I agree. The original site was better in my opinion. The other site that inspired you is a nightmare to view. Design is as much about function as it is style.

Obligatory quote? "Good artists copy, great artists steal." - Attributed to Picasso

I'm sure he stole the quote from somewhere....

"Ideas are a dime a dozen and worth what they cost."

Then there's this: http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/th...

yes yes yes, love bansky.

Yes, copying is fundamentally moral/ethical. (Although where it conflicts with a law, like copyright, it is another question -- does the law have precedence?)

(As I have written in other places:) To evaluate something morally, we can follow Kant (in 'Groundwork For The Metaphysic Of Morals'), whose fundamental moral rule is: Act only if the maxim of your action can be willed as a universal law. That is, we ask: would we want an action to become a general law? If a digital object is good, then copying it duplicates and spreads that good. And the incidental cost of copying is practically nothing. We can certainly wish this were a general law: if everyone copied freely and widely, we would all benefit – we would all receive very much more good, and at negligable cost.

You might say there is a loss to the originator, in losing an exclusive advantage. But that really has a hidden presupposition of some social or legal construction like copyright: there is nothing intrinsic in the actions or materials that suggests or requires exclusivity. Abstracts are naturally copyable. Everyone knows and expects that. And ultimately everyone benefits from it.

The copyability of things is like a free natural resource. It should be exploited and used as much as possible. That is the message of the ethical argument. The sad thing is that the copyright/patent/IP attitude has become so inculcated that many people no longer see the underlying truth.

It's not only ethical, it's dumb not to. It's what businesses have been doing since time immemorial. To watch your competitor improve and not do anything to compete is stupid. Ask Yahoo or KMart.

From the legal angle you're probably alright. We recently built a game largely based on another game (sort of the way omgpop built blockles, which is really just Tetris) and I've spoken to attorneys about this extensively. Other than crossing certain lines (trade dress, trademark infringement, etc.) you're probably safe. If you're using their art, or their branding, you may have trouble, but they certainly can't claim to have invented AJAX and a better UI.

You should seek legal counsel of course if it ever becomes a problem.

IMHO I hate their interface. That flashy Ajax is too overwhelming. Your plain list is easier for me to read. Have you tried doing user testing with your two pages and then also test how users interact with your competitor?

Aren't you supposed to be developing your users?

In other words, what does it matter what their site does? Your users are on your site are they not? This builditwithme "looks nice"; it has 129 people; what are you worried about?

Get some feedback from the people on your site. Talk to them, find out what, how, why, where they are looking for and (not finding) help with their project. It makes the farthest sense, at least in my opinion, to try to answer those questions by looking at some other guys site design.

Seriously, that's a step backwards. I get no overview, can't just browse, and with my browser window at 1024x768 your non-scrolling sidebar sometimes doesn't have a more info button at the bottom.

I find that it is important to not just blindly copy something, but to truly unpack the principles behind it and attempt to improve upon it. This allows you to be inspired by great work but to (hopefully) take it even further and polish it even more.

If you can't change or tweak anything about the original inpiration then it's a good bet you don't fully understand why it works or how, so you aren't going to grow in the process.

We have had people inform us that they were going to mimic the core idea of our site (and now they have, with venture backing). I wouldn't be worried about borrowing an interface.

What are you copying from builditwithme? I don't see much of a similarity. Anyway, I think your original site is much better than the new one.

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