D-Machine

Whether AI is conscious or not is independent of the social acceptance of the idea, unless you believe in thoroughly discredited and quite radical forms of social constructionism.

In fact, if you stop talking about consciousness, and go through all the various aspects of consciousness, the whole debate gets very interesting. There are various ways in which AI is very clearly conscious or exhibits / involves phenomena that are clearly involved in certain aspects of conscious, other ways in which AI already very clearly is missing other aspects, and then again some remaining ways which are unclear, and which may forever remain unclear.

Being clear about the different ways in which AI is, isn't, and might be conscious is a useful discussion and we still need to be having it.

EDIT: An analogy would be to recent shifts in whether or not lobsters feel pain, and so by extension, the ways in and degree to which lobsters can be considered consciousness. Research and debate has shifted opinions enough for parts of Europe to regulate certain methods of preparing them. But the ways in which lobsters are conscious and/or feel pain is an objective fact, regardless of what we decide.

Few philosophical definitions actually involve qualia or handwaving, because serious philosophy is quite careful about noting vagueness (handwaving) and circular defintions (qualia).

Also, saying "I define consciousness as X" and then going on to show that, because I decree consciousness to be X, we don't need to worry about Y, Z, and so on, isn't pragmatic at all, unless you pick an X that everyone agrees on. The definition you give is something hardly anyone would agree on.

Social consensus probably isn't even an aspect of consciousness, but at least one can make that argument coherently, if you rephrase it as "part of the decision to call something 'conscious' or not involves social consensus". But this is also trivial and boring and not why anyone actually cares about the "is AI conscious" debate.

You can conclude the author is a completely unserious thinker because he doesn't even take a second to talk about the definitions, or even show he has ever read any actual proper philosophical writing on consciousness at all. Like, literally all you have to do is read the Wikipedia entry to see that definitions are essential for meaningful discussion on consciousness.

So anyone that starts going on about AI and consciousness without at least a sentence or two clarifying some basic definitions is basically either intellectually incompetent or attempting to use the emotional salience (and brain-numbing effect, it would seem) of the word to push some agenda. But they certainly don't care at all about understanding consciousness.

Oh look, another completely retarded article that doesn't even bother to note or deal with the definition problem. If you don't define what you mean by the term, your argument isn't even wrong, it is just a waste of everyone's time, since there are multiple highly conflicting aspects of and/or definitions of consciousness.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/#ConCon

I'm in downtown Toronto, and there are plenty of (very quiet) electric cars, all sorts of quiet e-bikes and other electric personal transportation devices (scooters, e-unicycles) and other things (roller blades, bikes, skateboards) where often the only sound is the noise of the wheels on the sidewalk / pavement making a quiet hiss / rumble. I do a lot of walking, and headphone people are often (but not always) quite clueless about these things approaching. Granted, those other people aren't supposed to be where people are walking, but they regularly are, sadly.

Passing isn't something that is only the responsibility of the passer, that of course is absurd. Most people don't walk on the very edge of a path, but slightly off from the center (or in the shade close to the buildings if hot, or far from the street if puddles and raining, and etc), and you may also be carrying things that make you take up a lot of space.

So, in practice, as a walker, you do in fact have to be aware of people approaching from behind, at least, if you aren't an ass, because it is often kind (or even necessary) to move aside a bit to make passing easier / possible. Earphone people are some of the biggest assholes in these scenarios.

EDIT: But I fully agree that once you get out of the chaos of the downtown core, or likely plenty of other cities, this is probably just not really a meaningful problem / tradeoff.

The aversiveness of boredom is not conditioning, but part of its essence and generally is proposed to be its (presumably evolved) function. Boredom is arguably the negative emotion or cognitive mode that drives (or opens up the space for) creativity, exploration, play, and introspection, and this is broadly how it is seen in existential writing and in modern cognitive science and/or psychology.

You should try foam earplugs, if they are comfortable for you. Far more effective and discreet, you have a range of dB ratings to choose from for degree of muting, they are cheaper and stay in place better, and are more portable.

Same with walking in the city IMO.

I see a lot of people walking around in the city with headphones, and I always find it concerning. These people have huge issues with situational awareness: they can't hear faster walkers approaching from behind, often don't notice suspicious or erratic behaviour from the local flavour until far too late, and IMO are simply incapable of properly anticipating things like increased engine roars as a driver guns it trying to make it by on a yellow.

As long as people realize they are making this tradeoff, fine, I guess. But I wouldn't.

There is still IMO a way that "creative mode" can be wasted time, and that is when it is being used as a distraction from proper reflection / introspection. The pursuit of creativity / learning can be its own unhealthy obsession too.

Your ending paragraph: "With enough experience, your own unique ideas will dominate your mind. That's when you finally feel in control." also reads as something that could probably also be seen as potentially bad / delusion, in spiritual contexts as well (real control is mostly illusion, you actually do often want other people's ideas to dominate the mind, lest you fall into solipsism / narcissism, etc). Not to pick at your short comment here or presume that though, but it definitely sets off a red flag of some kind.

There is indeed quite a rich literature on the importance of boredom too. Basic links can be found on Wikipedia, Buddhism generally confronts it as well, and even research in psychology generally sees it as an important cognitive or emotional process. Sadly I feel we are losing sight of this.

A bit surprised at the focus on auditory stimuli here. There is a deeper point about our need for distraction in contemporary society which I think is with thinking about a bit.

You can scroll Twitter / read Hacker News or other sources of comments online, scroll TikTok / YouTube shorts slop-spam, read books, or constantly pipe in music / podcasts in any free moment (and these are very different and all can be good and bad in different ways), but if you are constantly fleeing boredom by grasping for whatever distraction is immediately available (even if this activity is typically seen as good, like "learning" or "reading books", or benign, like listening to music), this constant distraction has negative long-term consequences for personal growth.

There is a reason boredom comes up as crucial and important in spiritual practices (most meditation practices broadly involve forcing you to confront and learn to be comfortable with boredom, to some degree) and existential philosophy, and it is because boredom (especially existential boredom) is one way the mind tells you might not be being properly challenged, or that certain aspects of your life might not be truly fulfilling at the moment.

And sure, sometimes it isn't clear how to fix these issues, so distraction isn't inherently bad. But if all you do is distract, you'll flounder. So be wary IMO of habitually reaching for distraction (even if mild, like music / podcasts).

It is a problem of degree, not of kind, in contemporary society. The degree today to which people require / can seek out distractions today is not likely "normal" compared to what we know of past human history, although the desire to do so is likely the same old desire that has always been there.

Yes, although the evidence for those having meaningful or large health effects is far weaker, more suggestive / possible rather than clearly established. For sure though, "berries are healthy" is a far more general truth than "fruit is healthy" to be true.

I'm assuming a Western context, and that fruit and vegetable have their common language and culinary meanings, so that e.g. tomato and cucumber are vegetables, and that "fruits" generally means what is available to and consumed in most Western contexts. This seems reasonable given the article.

Avocado I don't personally consider to be either fruit or vegetable (it is a "tree fat"), and is more in the category of things like olives or seeds / nuts, in culinary and nutritional terms too. Calling avocado a fruit or vegetable feels extremely awkward, as does calling things like olives, capers, or, say, fresh green peppercorns. Starchy / root vegetables are not really what is meant by "vegetables" in these discussions either.

And yes, tropical fruits and berries actually have meaningful nutrients, and are better choices.

GP posting "Everyone I personally know working in software stopped writing code" on HN is such an obvious tell of blinkered delusion.

Literally all HN talks about is AI these days, and it is very, very clear that plenty of people are still writing lots of code, many finding AI makes them slower and causes more problems, and many making the reverse claims. There is always a rich mix of opinions and experiences here.

You would have to believe that literally everyone on HN is a bot (and also everyone on Reddit, Twitter, astralcodexten, or anywhere else online) to discount all these differing opinions in favor of "everyone I personally know" .

Let me put it this way: I don't think it is an uncommon belief that "adding fruit" to an existing diet will have benefits. But, in fact, if you are meeting your caloric and nutrient needs already, it is unlikely it adds anything (except fiber), and it is plausible it is causing problems (increasing possibility of diabetes, adding extra calories). Veggies are a safer add.

In both cases, you probably need to be rebalancing and not adding things, but, for the same reason, it is sensible to err on the side of much more veggies than fruits. However, because fruit tastes like candy (and perhaps because you don't have to cook them, generally), people reach for adding more fruit to their diets, and this is likely sub-optimal. You should almost certainly be eating much more vegetables than you should be eating fruit. I.e. I'd say healthy is more like 80% veggie, 20% fruit, if you are putting them in the same category.

Maybe 50/50 is perfectly good too, but it seems pretty clear 100% fruit and 0% veggie is the worst possible choice, but 100% veggie and 0% fruit is perfectly fine. This should bring into question the appropriateness of the label "healthy" for fruit.

Interesting. Pink Lady is a favorite for me, and Sweetango is great too, but I'd consider Cosmic Crisp very, very close to Pink Lady in overall balance (I do agree Pink Lady is better though). I'm in Canada and Cosmic Crisp is special / protected and seems to always have to come from the States, whereas I can get the others fresher and grown locally, so perhaps that is a factor.

Saying fruit isn't "healthy" doesn't mean it is unhealthy, there are plenty of neutral things here. But if you are treating fruits and veggies as the same (e.g. X servings of fruits and veggies), generally, anyone making X be 100% fruit is likely going to be less healthy than anyone making X be 100% veggies. And since all fruits do contain a lot of sugar (EDIT: and thus calories, which generally we already get too much of today), you should indeed moderate your consumption of fruits.

It is very hard, by contrast, to say a person can eat "too much veggies", unless they are doing something crazy like eating extreme amounts of the same greens high in oxalates or something.

Basically, enjoy a fruit or two a day, if you like them. Or don't. But you aren't "eating healthy" just because you eat a lot of fruit, nor are you eating unhealthily if you eat zero fruit.

It is reasonable to presume that balance has been undermined. In general "eat your fruit and veggies" should probably be modified to "eat your veggies", which generally have fiber and better nutrient density, without the unnecessary sugar. Modern fruit really is basically plant candy. And sure, that's better than actual candy or junk food, but I no longer think it is really scientifically tenable to call most fruit "healthy".

Wait what? Cosmic Crisp is like the clearest example of a balance between sweet and tart. What would you consider a balanced variety?

Set and setting can help make a positive experience likely, yes, I think what proponents often miss is that for the vast majority of people, the experience will mostly just be "interesting" and "memorable", and not particularly transformative. I.e. transformative / curative effects seem to be rare, IMO for the reasons I already stated.

Oh, I don't doubt that sometimes something fundamental can be altered. The best sort of broad explanation I've seen that jives with the experience is maybe the one I've found here: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/arti..., which I think would agree with your notion of a "reset" to fundamental neural structures. And yes, for certain conditions, like cluster headaches, as far as I know, psychedelics are the only things showing much real promise.

It can also just be easy for some proponents to forget that tonnes of people do and have done these things, with no clear significant lasting effects. And it is also common even for enthusiasts to say they they need to do take trips somewhat regularly (e.g. every few weeks or months) to regain the benefits. One-off miracles obviously happen, but I think are statistically likely the exception. And you can reverse or reject your insights, so for sure the trip is only one piece of the puzzle.

I'd love to see more serious research on psychedelics in general, to better engineer for useful and changing experiences. As it stands, just "take the psychedelic, manage your set and setting, and you'll have a significant positive effect" is generally not very plausible nor I think actually supported empirically or even by most anecdotes.

Right, when you take it, it becomes clear it just injects salience / profundity / meaning into whatever you happen to be focused on or have on your mind (EDIT: mostly this is the main effect, but there can be novel perspectives / insights, and other audio-visual changes, but IMO it is the felt meaning that primarily drives the more credulous claims). Without adequate preparation, this is likely to be worthless in most cases, harmful in other cases, and helpful in some again. However, not all causes of depression or addiction are about accepting death, or a salience / meaning problem, and even when that kind of issue is involved, a momentary experience of profound meaning is NOT actually necessarily transformative either (i.e. you can and in fact must still choose how to interpret that experience, once out of it).

So it would actually be very surprising if it was just a clear net positive overall

While I am quite skeptical of the claims linked above, that link does indeed cover the FNR at the FPR of 0.005, and finds it broadly to be on the same order of magnitude, i.e. also below 0.005.

We just perceive it as such, and this should be fairly hard to argue against with all the scientific advances we have made up to this point, at least as long as you assume consciousness involves biology and physics at least somewhat.

Otherwise, you can't explain e.g. smooth perceptions of low FPS stimuli, delayed reaction times, and must ignore obvious limits on various biological and neurological rhythms, or other possible limits on continuity (e.g. quantum stuff) and rates generally.

If you are interested in some serious discussion, see https://lossfunk.com/papers/ai-consciousness.pdf, especially the early section "Consciousness as Family Resemblance". I suppose another is Ned Block on consciousness being a "mongrel concept", and the distinction between access vs. phenomenal

The first paper picks out e.g. arousal/wakefulness, phenomenal quality / qualia, unity (how we feel sensory inputs and qualia as a unified scene), access consciousness (instrumental self-observation and modification broadly), meta-cognition and self-modeling, emotional valence (e.g. pain/pleasure).

One might also include intelligence (abstract reasoning / argument, information integration and abstraction, attention) broadly, and also agency / desires / drives / will. Insofar as these are aspects of consciousness, yes, AI (and simpler algorithms and mechanistic structures) demonstrate aspects of consciousness. But insofar as embodiment, self-reflexivity and qualia (phenomenal consciousness) are the more mysterious and more obviously unique aspects of consciousness, current LLMs very clearly are lacking these things in most ways (whereas animals are much less clearly lacking, especially when you get to mammals and primates).

Seriously, just ask an AI this stuff, you'll get very detailed responses, nothing I am saying here is new or obscure.

The major error made by most people in this thread is thinking it is possible to give a single definition of consciousness that is coherent and matches common usage. The folk concept of "consciousness" couldn't be a more clear definition of a family resemblance category, so discussions using the folk concept are an utter waste of time.

Move to the different aspects / parts / things involved when we talk about consciousness (experience / phenomenal consciousness, self-modeling, intelligence, agency, embodiment, wakefulness/alertness, attention, etc) and you can have very clear, meaningful, and unambiguous discussions on almost every point, but there is no coherent unified "consciousness" as normal people use it, and the folk concept can't be salvaged.

This article is bad because it just keeps trying to make the folk concept do work that the concept is simply too messy to handle usefully. But in fact if you avoid trying to find some mysterious essence or all-capturing definition, there is huge progress and lots of interesting stuff to say (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/).

I've seen papers claim that there are anywhere from 12 to 40 competing definitions (https://philpapers.org/rec/VIMMAT), or, more accurately, there are something like 12 to 40 different aspects which all relate to "consciousness", which is very clearly a family resemblance category.

"Is X conscious or not" is an entirely unserious question today, unless this is just a headline followed by actual (and explicit) examination of the various aspects of consciousness being discussed. But, even still, LLMs are probably only conscious in like 2-3 or so ways, most of those meaning broadly "intelligence", i.e. reasoning, problem-solving, etc. When it comes to anything experiential or embodied, AI might eventually get more of these, but LLMs based on recursively applied linear algebra are clearly missing too many core aspects of consciousness to be considered conscious in any broad sense.

Embarrassingly incompetent article. Given that one can observe up to 40 definitions of consciousness (https://philpapers.org/rec/VIMMAT - also many definitions are unrelated at all), "consciousness" is almost certainly just a family resemblance category at best, and talk about whether or not something is "conscious" without providing definitions is simply completely unserious.

To make progress, you have to talk about kinds / aspects of consciousness. AI does and will share some of these aspects with humans, but it will not and does not share others. It is really that simple. For the most part, modern AI implemented via LLMs has almost none of the stronger or most core aspects of consciousness.

For huge parts of the article "intelligence" and "consciousness" are conflated, which is mostly extremely unhelpful, as this is not generally a core feature of most aspects of "consciousness".

The moral arguments are also incompetent, i.e. claiming "Moral reasoning is [...] is necessarily subjective" is just clearly empirically wrong, as in fact LLMs can produce moral reasoning (i.e. verbalized moral arguments that are coherent), as can p-zombies (i.e. there is nothing 'necessary', in the philosophical sense of the term, about subjectivity here). The only way the argument holds is if you tautologically define moral reasoning as requiring that reasoning be produced by a consciousness, but this is question-begging.