Tozen

> ...overpromised and underdelivered on many features...

We could argue that all programming languages that aren't 1.0, have not delivered yet. So, with that same energy, it will be interesting to go chase around supporters of Jai, Mojo, Zig, Odin, etc... with the same rhetoric.

Vlang is "delivering" to its users, as evident by its near weekly updates, VPM, or Awesome V site. It's an open-source project and language. Developers are free to join the project to ensure "delivery of the product".

Else if they are not using said product, they don't have to worry about it. It would be bizarre for any person to be so obsessed with something one doesn't want to use, unless maybe competitors who are afraid of that language.

> ...shelling out to other executables like curl.

Vlang doesn't use curl in its modules. Everyone is free to check its source code. It has it's own such functionality, written in V. So that's looks like misinformation.

> ...defensiveness of Vlang supporters...

Didn't know about this new rule, where if one posts a response 16 days later, the other isn't allowed to make a counter point.

By the way, don't represent "all" Vlang supporters. Just giving my personal opinions, here on HN, like others are allowed to and for the languages they like.

> It might have all been fixed by now...

If one doesn't know about the thing they are talking down on ("It might"), then that looks like something very odd is going on. Doesn't make sense to worry and talk about something that one doesn't use, except again a competitor or just out to troll.

> features on its homepage (without any indication that they were work in progress) that had no implementation and that had no proper prototype...

Maybe there is confusion about what year or what time period being talked about. This is the year 2023. Perhaps what is being referred to is 2019, the first day(s) of the language being released, or mistakes on its website. Here's the thing though, its a free open-source language. Pretty sure such mistakes have happened on websites and with other languages before (especially just released ones).

Not seeing people on HN chasing down supporters of Jai, Mojo, Zig, Odin, etc... about stuff on their website from 4 and 5 years ago that nobody cares about. Furthermore, people freely choose to use, support, or donate. Not understanding being upset over what languages other people like to use, well unless...

There's other opinions out there, that discuss the direction taken by Go on error handling, for example this Vlang related article[1] that touched on it (from someone who appears to be a gopher).

However, part of the issue is the tolerance or maturity necessary for being able to handle a different opinion. That someone gives a different preference, for instance Vlang or Odin (that has its own views), can make evangelists or "corporate machinery" upset. Then we can witness mob or anger downvoting. This then limits the debate or creates more of a barrier for different opinions to want to contribute or ever be seen.

[1]: "Is Vlang better than Golang in error handling?" (https://towardsdev.com/is-vlang-better-than-golang-in-error-...).

More people are finding out that when a site or company says or pretends they have "deleted" something, that's not necessarily the case. Soon more will find out it's not just reddit, that holds on to or even transfers data for all kinds of undisclosed purposes or profit, that people think was gone or forgotten.

That's part of the problem. The get out of my sight, go somewhere else mentality, can lead down a very dark and even more evil path.

But that's not what's going in this case. Turning on existing WiFi at a specific location or providing more free WiFi throughout the city, is not bankrolling all of the US's homeless.

And regardless, San Francisco's homeless problem won't go away by ignoring it or pretending to. Makes more sense for the city and area to deal with it, by coming up with more effective and humane solutions. To not do so, creates a worldwide bad look and increases the embarrassment. Various people (or groups) are already making fun of the US by constantly reporting on and shooting videos of its huge numbers of homeless, to push back on the bragging, bravado, and hypocrisy.

Bragging about how great they are, while walking over and shooing away all the unemployed, hungry, desperate, and destitute around them.

> Take care of your people...

Don't view or consider them as their people, and in some cases, don't even think of them as people at all.

So, instead of finding ways to help the less fortunate and reduce homelessness, it was seen as better to find ways to get the problem to go elsewhere. As if turning off the WiFi means the homelessness problem will just disappear too.

In the case of V, it's already there to do much of what is being wished for. V (an easier higher level C family language) can be transpiled to readable C. Even more, V can transpile C to V (C2V) and can be used like a scripting language, even though it's a compiled language.

>Last I heard it was still promising too much, under delivering and not handling the feedback too well.

This is an odd statement, as if pushing along an artificially generated negative narrative. It comes across as not using or having never used what one is talking about. Therefore using hearsay and rumor ("last I heard"), which easily can come from competitors and trolls, as the basis of information versus facts.

Constructive feedback would be going to their GitHub and making suggestions, filing useful bug reports, or helping to implement some feature (for those who are really as technically skilled as they claim elsewhere).

> Has vlang managed to get past its controversies and actually deliver on its promises?

The V project is constantly delivering. This can be seen by their near weekly updates, projects on VPM, projects on Awesome V, etc...

The so-called "controversies", have much to do with competitors and trolls, as with anything else.

>...it might be useful to check previous threads here since vlang has been quite controversial.

The majority of controversy has been generated by competitors and detractors using various social media platforms to spread misinformation. To include identified troll accounts created specifically for the purpose of launching such attacks. Something like, "throwing stones and hiding their hands".

It would arguably be better to try the language out for oneself, and form one's own opinion, versus allowing known competitors and evangelists who are purposely spreading misinformation to shape one's mind. Just like it is common sense to not expect a used car dealer trying to make sales to give fair and honest opinions or assessments about competitor's cars.

> Or check what they have implemented versus promised.

Yes, totally agree that the best way is to check something out, and form one's own opinion. Also, these are free open-source languages that we are referring to. People are free to go to their GitHub and make suggestions, discuss, or join the effort to help implement whatever they feel is needed.

I wouldn't say HN is as bad as reddit, with the mob mentality downvoting. At least on HN, some people show signs of taking a moment to think.

> I think this is going to be another V-lang situation personally, despite the credibility of Lattner. I think this is just someone seeing an opportunity to cash in on the "AI hype" situation that exists currently.

Mojo is not only directed at AI, but at Python users as an alternative and superset. The use of it for AI, is partially based on the use case of Python. Insinuating that Mojo is trying to "cash in" on "AI hype", is odd in the context of all the others who clearly do so, but where is the "cash in" at? Mojo and Vlang are free.

Vlang (V-lang) has made no such marketing claims in regards to AI, so pairing the languages together comes across as odd. If the argument is about "cashing in", that looks even weirder. The users of both languages can get it for free. As with any programming language, there can be donations and sponsors. Why would it be a problem for Mojo or Vlang to have sponsors, but somehow not so for other competing languages, in regards to their claims? This comes across as at least one is fine with their favorite language getting sponsors or donations, but not others. Or maybe hoping to cut the funding sources of new languages, so there will be less competition.

> Even reputable people can be influenced to do shady things when lots of money is involved!

The accusation or insinuation is being made that Lattner is "shady" for money, while a backhand is being thrown at Vlang too. Outside of throwing smears, there is no proof of them being in it for hustling money or doing anything that different from what competing programming language creators have and are doing. And that's without talking about the corporate created languages, where obviously money and market share are major driving forces for them.

> ..."do potential users of Mojo even know or care about how fast C is?"

I doubt their potential users would care so much, as long as it's significantly faster than Python and they don't need C or C++, except as an option and not as a necessity. That's been the point of various other alternative languages.

The claim to fame of various newer compiled languages, is not just being as fast as C, but that they are better alternatives to use, for their audiences. Being easier to use, read, or/and learn. This is where some of the drama comes from, because some will make it about speed, and ignore the other elements of what is "attractive".

Plus we are talking about a free open-source project, that's more of a grassroots effort, that didn't start as a corporate plan and creation. There are others contributing and writing documentation (and they aren't all English experts). Mistakes will happen and changes are allowed (many for the good). The language is not 1.0 yet, so should be allowed and will evolve/change over time (as other languages before it).

People are also free to join the project or directly make helpful suggestions. That's part of the point of open-source.

"I'm Not Surprised Motherf*ckers!" -- Nate Diaz

> I don't see how discouraging other people for trying to innovate is helpful.

That's debatably where the trolling, misinformation, and other underhanded tactics come in. Maintaining the status quo and protecting one's interests, even to the detrimental of the whole, fairness, or the greater good.

Didn't Mojo just come out? What Mojo will become in regards to Python, remains to be seen. This will likely take them years. Passing judgment on the project so early, is obviously premature.

> Although not as outrageous as V...

Comes across as adding drama. Like arguing with one guy, then slapping another who wasn't involved, thinking it will be funny or because one might get away with it.

> 3) Mojo does bold claims like being a better python with performance close to C, like V did, yet no one seems to call them out (yet????)

There appears to be confusion here. Mojo is trying to align itself with and be a kind of superset of Python, like C++ was to C. It's also an alternative for Python users, to use it, instead of reaching for C++ or C when they need speed or going lower level. From their website, that's not what V devs ever claimed nor is it their angle for users. V is a different programming language (and compiled), which provides benefits such as greater speed, type safety, etc... in comparison to Python. It would be a switch over, not a superset.

V is more of an alternative to Go and then C (in terms of ease of use and greater safety). Mojo and V are mostly in different lanes, where they appeal to different audiences, and how they are marketing themselves has nothing to do with the other.

> Anyway, never gonna try it, unless I'm absolutely forced. I hate their marketing strategy, it sounds too bad

This comes across as weird, to claim one will never use or gives the impression to never have used the programming languages they are talking down on. If not using Mojo or V, why be so preoccupied? Just skip over to what one does like and not be worried.

> ...hate their marketing strategy

Just about all programming languages attempt to sell themselves to the public. If they don't, people don't hear about them, and they die in obscurity.

And a lot of times, people are allowing themselves to be brainwashed by what big corporations have to sell, because they have big budgets for marketing. People often like, what big companies told them to, because of their infomercials and marketing campaigns. Sometimes, it can be good or at least fair to give alternatives a shot.

The deaths and the life altering consequences of unknown diseases on countless people appear to be the result of undisclosed secret experiments by their own government.

No accountability, no payments to surviving family members nor those directly affected. Just "toys" to be played with and discarded at will. When people seek justice, just lots of gaslighting and bureaucracy in return.

The AI can reflect the bias of its creators and the training data given to it. It's also a product of the culture in which it was created.

> Odin instead takes the position that everything is zero-initialized by default...

> Exhaustive field setting does remove uncertainty and I was very skeptical about just leaving things to zero-initialization, but overall I would say I prefer it. It really does work out most of the time...

Vlang does this as well (also influenced by Wirth/Pascal/Oberon/Go). Overall, this is an advantage and greater convenience for users.

Part of "mindshare" are organizations pushing it on social media and marketing. Choose the language that solves your problems and that you like. Don't make a choice because a group is telling you what to like, is bullying others because they like something different, or are trying to shove something down your throat for their profit or benefit. Perfectly fine to have an independent mind, and make decisions best for you.

If that's the thinking, looks like it will be a long wait. Appears to be another 2 to 3 years before 1.0 hits. And it publicly came out in 2016, so add all those years up.

Good videos and point. The situation involved around battery swapping and how to do it matters, versus wholesale dismissing the idea because of a fondness for ICE or close-mindedness. The answer to the question, is not to be stuck on oil forever or until the climate is destroyed.

Other countries have this issue, but they offset it with strong immigration and foreign workers, to include a clear and easy path to citizenship or permanent residence.

The problem with Japan (and a few other countries), is there are extremely high levels of racist and nationalistic ideology (even towards other Asians) over "purity", which aren't often openly discussed for trade and public relations. These kinds of attitudes often devolve into policies that aren't going to help the tax base. It also exacerbates the problem, as more "foreigners" discover they aren't really welcomed nor will be accepted.

So, Japan will remain "pure", as its population steadily and rapidly decreases. It's arguably a Japan problem, if they want to dwindle into irrelevancy (and some are content to do exactly that), while entertaining and indulging in various prejudices and discrimination.

They do have nightly builds, so they are continuing:

https://reactos.org/getbuilds/

https://iso.reactos.org/livecd/

Though I would agree with the sentiment that the project needs to speed it up to reach a point of greater usability or needs more help in doing so, to remain relevant and be seen as a viable alternative.

> Wasnt c created in 2 weeks

No, because C was derived from B. B was created in 1969 and was much of the basis of what would become C, which is given the release date of 1972. So we can make the argument of at least around 3 years of development, of what would be named C, before reaching a stable or usable enough state.

Languages and goals were much simpler in the past. Stages of development like alpha, beta, or what was 1.0 get kind of mixed up. It's not as clear a process, as we have today.

> Except for jai, because jblow has other things todo

Surely the other language creators had/have other things going on too. One of the main differences, that was attempting to clarify in the previous post, is that certain programming languages have huge corporate backing, which affects their development time. C (AT&T), Go (Google), Rust (Mozilla), and Swift (Apple) have reached 1.0 or stability faster, because of who they have supporting and pushing them.

Independent and more grassroots projects can sometimes achieve 1.0 in comparable times. But, this seems related to how exceptionally talented the lead developers are, experienced (as created other languages before), goals of the project (simpler is often easier), popularity, or how many contributors and sponsors got involved.

Crystal, looks to have took around 7 years to reach 1.0 (though with Windows support issues). Julia, comes in at about 9 years. Nim, another notable project, appears to have took around 11 years. We might can expect things to go a bit faster now, than back then, but within reason. And referring to programming languages that are reasonably well known and used.

Agree. Maybe the flag should be removed or perhaps move the discussion (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36000242) to here and under dang's post.

There have been many arguments that Zig's Try/Catch is hidden control flow. Though many would argue that trying to stick to "catch phrases", can result in painting one's self into a corner, versus what's best to accomplish a task.

Lots of people love interfaces (or similar like "traits"). Helps them get what they need done and there are lots of examples of their usage in different languages. Accomplishing the task, is what's most important.

You are right, though kind of easy to miss, relative to everything on that page. Maybe it should say English translation or English Readme in larger letters for the non-attentive people :-)