aogaili

But what does this has to do with LLM-assisted coding? I wouldn't trust this app even it was manually coded.

In fact, given the recent reports, in terms of security, one is better off consulting LLMs on the exposure surfaces. Something a solo developer can now do cheaply but in the past required a lot of specialized knowledge.

Sorry I don't understand your argument.

You are right - my apologies. It could be a good idea given that we will end up with so many doubts and comments like this.

I get it, and frankly I don't know about this app.

But the parent comment positioned itself against all "LLM-aided apps", the author didn't say a slop or poorly coded. And even if it looks like LLM coded, we still can't tell about the level of thought that went into it. Developers had many poorly coded UIs and yet the apps functioned well and served it's purpose.

So the entire chain of reasoning is a form stereotype forming. Looking at this specific app, I can see that the author thought about the marketing/business and functionality, more than other alternatives, maybe because they had more mental bandwdith to do so.

Maybe this developer didn't bother I didn't even look frankly.

My point was that you can have very well designed and thoughted apps with LLMs. In fact, I'd argue you can go way further and deeper than any manual coded application paired with AI assistance.

But maybe this instance is not the case. But even if it turns out to be not the case, if the app does work and serves the utility you are after, then why not using it? People use many things in everyday life without thinking about what thought was put into it..in fact, most people don't think at all about what it took to build anything, and how it was built..

Do you really know or care if the shoes you wearing was handmade or built by a factory in china using robots? you probably don't know and don't care.

It did make it easier to generate thoughtless apps, I agree.

But this process is new, and not every AI assisted app is thoughtless. In fact, I'd argue that if a person put more thoughts and amplify their abilities with AI assisted coding, then the total sum of mental labour exceed that of any manually coded app by huge margins.

I'm not sure about this particular app, haven't looked into it. But I was merely commenting about the mindset of the parent comment.

You can put a lot of thoughts while using LLMs.

You are equating manual coding with more thinking, which has proven to be not the case given that it is mostly automated.

so what if it is "very much LLM-aided app"?

We are going to have the organic label soon on apps with this mindset..AI assisted development is evolving by the day and at the rate most apps will be built that way..

Agreed! now that I see the sign, it is actually really decent and fits the theme of the shop. Someone felt threatened by it I think or it could be someone wanted to attack the coffee shop/owner for some reason.

This is shaming/bullying of the crowd and it is hurting a small business owner and a new mother.

The owner clearly cares, but she has a new born baby and looking for way to speed up things without adding extra admin overhead and expenses. She is now forced to go back to a manual process.

She wasn't aware of the slop-shaming online, she saw a good enough sign and used it.

If people don't like the coffee shop because of an AI sign, they go buy somewhere else, but they can spare the shaming, ideological lectures, projections and death threads. I bet you anything this is the same crowed that is lecturing people about pronounces and shaming them, a form of power exertion.

I agree, I think my comment was for the parent post.

Sorry

Too lazy?

I bet anything you never ran a small business of any sort.

"I guess the dream is that we'll all become business founders, with the LLM as our founding engineer, and we can just ask them to build what we think the business needs, and go through them to make refinements and changes."

That's pretty much what I'm doing after 20+ years of writing code.

They do feel like teammates sometimes, though I tend to give them much more explicit instructions. It feels less like complete outsourcing and more like declarative programming in English.

Where we differ is that you seem to see code as this rigorous medium of thought that defines the craft, whereas I don't. I've always viewed code as a translation layer between human intent and machine execution. That layer has simply dissolved. Viewing code this way might feel less romantic and more pragmatic, but I think it’s more accurate. You can think, reason, and make decisions just as rigorously in plain English. The skill of translating English into code was what got automated—the true craft lives way above and beyond that layer.

But I don't think I can convince you on HN if you have such a strong views on coding. And I'm left to wonder, how are you feeling about the craft if what you perceived as the core activity (I thinking coding was at best 20% of the craft) got fully automated? Have you tried to build a really complex software with LLMs over few months? I think that might give you more clear picture of what truly happened.

What about product vision? The taste, and the hundreds—if not thousands—of micro-decisions required to build something decent? What about codebase architecture? The user experience, and how using the software makes someone feel? What about the narrative and mental models the software offers users? How does it shape the way they think? What about expanding into adjacent, bigger, or deeper products?

Is none of this part of the artistic side of the craft? If I tell an LLM, 'Connect to DB X, pull data from Y, and display it in table Z,' is that really less of a craft than manually referencing API docs, wiring up data pipelines, and serializing objects? Is telling an LLM 'Do X, then Y, then Z' truly that different from writing if X do Y or while X do Z? It reminds me of the pushback against Java and other high-level languages when they were first introduced—people panicked over losing low-level control.

I do recognize something is lost by moving to a higher abstraction (e.g. from JS/Java/PHP to English), but to say the entire craft is lost and what we had before was "music" relative to the nothing now, I believe it is a narrow take on what is happening.

I appreciate the response and I get it. Something was lost in this transition and you explained it well.

The only pushback I can think of is that I do feel coding, which is a list of instructions to a computer, differ from music. With LLMs the translation work between English and coding primitives and concepts was reduced significantly. I think that took the challenge and the sense of control/mastery out of the craft.

There is something lost in that transition. I remember my university professor used to equate coding with poetry. But after decades of working on corporate codebases, I personally welcomed the automation. I always wanted to build ambitious and quality software and this was nearly impossible with the level of abstraction we had before. So something was lost but also a lot was gained.

Exactly, well said.

I think folks in the craft need to mature a bit and understand this very well.

Software developers/engineers build software - coding is a mean to an end.

The craft is about creating a tool that others use not some divine code that programmers stare at and admire.

You are confused that is why you are surprised.

good post/take.

Alright - the internet is vast place, and there are many places I wouldn't want to visit.

The internet is growing with some ugly parts - but there are other people generating more interesting content precisely because their abilities are amplified with LLMs.

In other words, maybe we ought to focus on the positive possibilities instead of doom and gloom all day long, we will be all dead in 10 years or the internet will be dead, or I and you will be dead, or my dog will be dead or the universe will expand to cold death, or whatever..

Haha - I'm just seriously wondering, how can anyone tell at this point?

It is cool. But how do we know that nobody solved that problem before and it was somewhere in the training data? some blog, or some book or whatever?

I griefed a bit myself for the effort I put to learn programming, I do enjoy the concepts and theories, it was playground for my mind.

But the way I see it, is that I got a matching partner, that is also very good at programming. And there is a strange sense of excitement when I watch the LLMs struggle were I used to struggle and excel in many other areas I'm poor at.

But I got into coding to build products/software that I can share with others, and this has accelerated, so that is also exciting, I decided to put the money and fear aside and do what I love..build things.

"And if you can do it, people think you're clever, and respect you." - that is the main issue here..personally, in where I come from the work was never respected and also never paid well, so I always did it because I like to create/build and keep my mind engaged.

That should not be downvoted..this is true for manu people on this forum too.

But we have the same examples in chess, running, bodybuilding etc..all of which machines have out performed us.

And that good for humans are finding their true natural again, an intelligent consciousness animals. We take pride in that.

I think it's narrowing at the top.

Yeah - that's why I think they are basically squeezing the scaling laws and the current architecture with incremental innovations.

I expect they will continue optimizing and improving for the current use cases/benchmarks. But the core capabilities will stagnant, that's why they will be forced to slow down until another major breakthrough happens.

I personally don't think LLMs have any understanding of the world, nor any imagination or even agency. I think it got very good as recognizing patterns and shapes in human thinking, language and knowledge, but that's pretty much it.

Let me ask you, have you noticed that all the major labs are releasing models very similar in gains and performance? How do you explain that other than juicing the max out of the current architecture and processes.

Nice story - AI will kill humans therefore we will slow down.

When all labs are approaching the same marginal improvment which is a clear sign that more breakthroughs needed to achieve the god they hyped.

What is the author ranting about? I'm still not clear after reading it.

The code produced is not optimized for reading?

I'm about the same age and I grew up in those systems you mentioned and now living in liberal democracy.

Thinking about it, I think you are right. I think I got used to not worry about being under constant threat/violence.

Given a choice I would rather live in democratic systems - but to say that everyone wants democratic systems tell you are not as exposed as you think you are. There are many failed democracies which resulted in highly bloated and corrupt governments, and these tend to make the situation worse. And there are many states running alternative governance system with success.

When you are saying everyone, you are basically projecting your liberal values on others and you are convinced they are superior and that is why it is dangerous.

Regarding wars - Iran, Iraq, Libya, and many other examples (coups) were initiated in the name of liberty and freedom. And notice that all those countries are rich in oil.

Regarding Iran specifically, you won't understand until you study the Shai's faith and history which I'm sure you don't have any knowledge or understanding of.

What courage?

Hating AI is the norm right now..all those college students, almost everyone in my circle hates AI..the real courage is to speak the truth and try to be objective..