copergi

>You can protect against dependencies breaking by adding upper limits

As every sane system does. So again, why are you acting like this is a haskell thing?

>but that doesn't fix the problem

Yes it does.

>every time someone makes a breaking change in a library API, everyone using that library needs to check through what actually changed to see whether it affects their particular situation

That is the case no matter what. If I write an SSL application in C, I need to pay attention if a new version of openssl comes out. Once again, this isn't even remotely a haskell issue.

>but I don't think it is helpful for mainstream industrial development

You are not required to update to every new version that is released. If you do not want to track the bleeding edge then don't. That's why we have upper bounds.

I didn't mention it because it is common knowledge and openly acknowledged by notch. The game's name is infiniminer.

It went down in 2012 and somehow rather than get the correct idea from that (everything breaks) people took this bizarre notion that EBS is bad and everything else has perfect reliability. In reality, tons of other AWS services run on top of EBS, including load balancers. When EBS fails again, the people thinking they are avoiding it will still have outages.

I know what ageism is. You quoted something that is not an example of it. Given that this is entirely pointless, would you mind if we went back to the actual discussion?

>There most certainly are other cloud providers out there

With similar pricing to amazon. Are you not reading any of the replies you've gotten?

>Saying 'a lot of younger programmers probably don't appreciate the best parts of haskell' is clear age-ism

No it isn't.

>I think it's annoying.

Ok, but that doesn't support the claim you made and I questioned.

Yes, I am reading it. That does not say anything even remotely close to "ulisesrmzroche is a noob for not knowing haskell". I am not being a dick, I am being polite and trying to understand where you are coming from. I don't see how insulting me helps either of us, only how it makes your claims that "haskell people keep insulting me" rather hypocritical.

But the thing people are needlessly concerned about with EBS is full datacenter failure. Which is just as much a problem for those EC2 instances. Synchronous replication to another data center is a massive performance killer.

And you do what for loadbalancing?

>If the community was larger we would have run into less issues.

I'm not so sure that's the case. For example, debian's user base is vastly larger than openbsd's, yet debian has bugs like "all the keys you ever generated are garbage" and openbsd doesn't. The "many eyes" hypothesis is bogus. Bugs are found and fixed more through deliberate effort than just large numbers of people.

foo || bar

It is very like what you wrote, try reading your post again.

>Every year, on a Haskell thread, someone calls me a noob for not knowing it.

That sounds a lot like you putting words in other people's mouths. I've never seen anything like that.

>Then you get like the same 3 or 4 dudes talking about how it's only a matter of time until the enterprise picks it up and all the dumb people go away.

Or that.

>I just want to see a working to-do list application, or anything resembling that size before we start the name-calling.

Now I am even more confused. Why do you want to call people names, who do you want to call names, and why do you want to see some random toy app first?

>While they may not all be "cloud" providers

Then they are not "other options", that's the point.

On a completely different service. Which is the point. I get more food for $10 at burger king than I do at a hotel, but that doesn't make burger king a replacement for hotels.

>Not having to wait 4-8 hours to access them

I can't download the data that fast anyways, it is a total non issue for us.

>Glacier access costs can get expensive depending on the quantity of data you need to access in a short period of time

Yeah, it is for backups. That's why we are talking about how we use it for backups.

>We're quibbling over ~$250/year?

Times the "few TB" we are talking about, that is over a$1k a year, as I said. We're not quibbling. I asked a simple question. Why would I take the time and effort to move my backups from a 1c/GB service to a 3c/GB service? There is no upside. "You can pay an extra $1000 for no reason, which is a great idea because $1000 isn't very much" is not very compelling.

There's a few calculators that make it quite simple to figure out restore costs.

As others pointed out, you use EBS then.

How do you even do anything without using EBS?

I don't think a few TB counts as "massive", and that still saves you over a grand a year. Why move backups to a 3x more expensive service, what's the upside?

What "other options"? You mean sketchy "free 9000 exabytes/month of bandwidth" low end hosting places like hetzner? Those are not alternatives to AWS or azure or google cloud. And those bandwidth costs do not reflect reality, they assume most people use almost none of that bandwidth. The bandwidth still costs the same, just the big users are getting the small users to pay for their bandwidth costs.

> He has credibility because he's proven to be effectual, innovative and principled

He has proven the exact opposite. He made a clone of an existing game, failed to deliver on almost everything he promised the people buying it, and then walked away from it leaving it to be never finished by someone else.

>This is not the case of a guy getting lucky in the viral lottery and then running his mouth.

Yes, that is exactly what it is.

To be fair, these are people who funded the company in the first place, based on kickstarter's deliberately misleading marketing materials pretending that makes them investors. Generally when people fund a company which is bought by big money, they get a payout. In this case, instead they get the thing that made them fund it in the first place thrown in the garbage.

Perhaps I was not clear. You stated the very reason for laziness: to not compute things you don't need computed. There are many cases where it is very beneficial to be able to determine this at evaluation time, rather than when writing the code. Hence laziness, and hence it being used all the time in most mainstream languages.

I think it is pretty safe to say that the average quality of PHP developers is lower than any other language except possibly javascript. There's a huge amount of very low knowledge people in both camps dragging the average down. Comparing python to ruby or perl things seem pretty similar.

I think you are generalizing a bit too much. You may very well write code that way, but I don't. Having come to haskell from several years with ocaml, I found the switch to lazy by default to be entirely irrelevant and inconsequential. As long as I have the ability to be strict when I need to, and lazy when I need to (which both languages give me), I don't care which is the default.

>Every year I read on HN that this year is Haskell's year

Really? Every year I read on haskell a bunch of uniformed dismissal of haskell from people who seem to have a deep seated hatred of learning. How do you get "this year is haskell's year" from his comment at all?

>Anyone got a link to a good todo-mvc implementation

A what? MVC is an object oriented pattern, I would certainly hope nobody tried to do it in haskell.

>I see no reason why strictness would have pathological performance problems. If you don't need to compute a value, dinner compute it. No performance problems.

You just answered your own question. "If you don't need to compute a value, then don't compute it" is laziness.

>That seems absurd given that the overwhelming majority of programmers have gotten along without it for 50 years.

No they haven't. Most programmers don't understand it, but they tend to use it on a regular basis.

If your complaint is "some haskell libraries move too fast for my liking" then you should say that in the first place. If you frame your complaint as "cabal sux and everything else solves this wtf is wrong with you guys" then you have to reasonably expect that is what people will respond to.

I would tend towards guessing 5. It is easy to blind yourself to management stupidity at first as you focus on the work. But eventually that management stupidity starts directly impacting you. I'm trying to figure out how to escape from my current job for exactly this reason. Everything seemed great at first, small company, little management, the president had a good vision for where the company needed to go and how technology was going to get it there. Then 2 years in the president is micromanaging web design saying "I know how easy this is, just add some 1 pixel spacer gifs" as he demands that elements from one page line up with elements from another page but can't grasp that having a scrollbar or not changes the width of his browser window. The web designer quit (obviously) and now I get to try to work with some sketchy web dev shop where every task assigned to me in jira looks like "these ids are not valid you have to change the ids!!!!!". That is more venting than telling you about my experiences, but I think I needed to so thanks for the invitation.