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drieddust

1,186 karma · joined July 12, 2011

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drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
> What's the use of this "class system" if one class covers such a broad area? Isn't it so broad as to be useless?

Hinduism is evolutionary in nature. It anticipated emergence of new profession as society progressed ahead with time . Having said that first three classes were fixed in terms of duties of education, defence , and business. They were responsible for providing stable environment for rest of the professions to bloom and evolve. That why last class wasn't fixed. It is impossible to predict emerging professions anyways.

Moreover The Varna system was merely a loose way of classifying the society. These weren't categories you have to live your entire life. Many people moved up and down. Vishwamitra was a king who turned into a sage as an example. There is a long list of such cases.[1]

> Was this ever true in practice?

Yes to a large extent. Please read comment of dilippkumar quoting from the books describing practices of pre-conial India.

If you have time please read Bhagwad Gita for an introduction to Hindu philosophical system. Many Westerns like Bethovan, Robert Oppenheimer, Thoreau have drawn inspiration from it. Remember this book was written 5000 or perhaps before that. Only a stable and developed society would've thought about these ideas in such details I would argue.

[1] http://www.hindupedia.com/en/%C5%9Audra_Hindu_saints

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
Rapes are a tragedy and need to be deal above the level of politics.

> Just because there was no outrage for X doesn't meant here shouldn't be outrage for Y.

Yes it is. What would be your thoughts if you are consistently fined but your neighbor is simply ignored for the same offense.

> I hope that, if nothing else, it leads to law and order becoming a major election issue

Ofcourse that is the entire story. There is no desire to change the system. For argument sake this will lead to the change in Government, what will change with that? Bringing back SP and Congress will improve the system? UP under SP was a horrible place. These 2 parties have destroy UP over the years. Land of poets is now land of petty criminals.

And if this is the intention why spare Rajasthan and Kerala? Change their government also for the same reason. We will be changing Government every other day.

Once again I am not against outrage I am against using rape for political gain. But seems like you are ok with it.

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
I didn't say division of labour should be hereditary. I said India had division of labour but people were allowed to move up and down as per their skill and abilities. The hard caste boundaries were enforced by British colonial rule.

My other comment quotes shloka from Hindu text clearly saying everyone is born lower class unless they earn their place.

How is that unfair?

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
Why police decides to cremated the body should be investigated for sure. But Equally brutal cases have happenned recently with no outrage at all.[1] Sharing it here for argument's sake. Personally I don't like to share these shitty stories usually.

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/india...

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
I agree completely. The Question is what is being done to erase that difference?

IMHO trying to find cultural fit is a form of ongoing discrimination[1] and it strengthens the effect of different starting points[2].

India is countering [2] by enforcing a 50% quota in education, Jobs, and politics. AFAIK West on the other hand is wishing it to vanish without doing anything concrete.

India is taking right steps in the right direction and I am hopeful this will vanish as generation born with caste concepts die off slowly.

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
BBC confuses caste with division of labour bases on skills.Entire article is based on superficial reading of Indian culture. Please read the comment from this very post.

https://news.ycombinator.com/upvoted?id=drieddust&comments=t

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
Most companies look for "cultural fits"? Isn't that a form of caste discrimination? People from similar social background have similar taste hence fits well culturally.Isn't that obvious?

If racial discrimination doesn't exist why Blacks are economically poor across in west?

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
I am getting downvoted for merely stating the origins of caste system. This speaks volumes about echo chamber in which HN audience is living.
drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
Edit: I would truly appreciate a discourse. Simple downvoting provides no feedback.

India suffers from this colonial system and unfortunately media takes every single opportunity. Like recent rape cases. Only case with victim from lower class and culprits from higher class is getting all the media attention.

I am not saying it's unnecessary but having a dialog requires honest intentions. Just like BLM these media hype cases don't help.

In my 20 years of experience I have seen caste discrimination in villages but not in modern offices. People from all creed and caste work together and progress together.

As far as marriages are concerned , how many Europeans marry outside their social class? I would guess not many.

drieddust··on How To Be An Anti-Casteist
<Edit> I have structured the post better and would appreciate if people can let me know what's wrong with this comment. </Edit>

India is struggling hard to get rid of this menace introduced during colonial era. We have reservation in education, government jobs, and politics to bring backwards at par. Almost 50% of seats in education and government jobs falls under this category. Seat are also reserved into politics.

But the the irony of India is that caste as a system was introduced by European. Word caste itself is of Portuguese origin. Here is a quick read.[1]

All mature societies need skill based division of labour. India had Varna based system which meant society needs four classes of people to run smoothly. These weren't hard classes you were enforced in. People changes their classes as they changes profession. For example Rishi Vishmamitra was a born warrior but later on he turned into a academic. Here is a famous shloka from [2]

<quote>

    जन्मना जायते शूद्रः संस्कारात् द्विज उच्यते |
    वेद–पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाती ब्राह्मणः |

 Janmana jayate sudrah, samskarat dwij uchchte,

 Veda pathnat bhavet viprah, brahma janati brahmanah
Meaning: In Vedic culture by birth everyone is Sudra(lower caste), by accepting Samskara (Purificatory process) one becomes a Dvija(Twice Born), By study of Veda one becomes Vipra, Knower of Brahman is Brahmana. It means a true brahmin has the divine vision, knowledge and powers.

Sloka means everybody is born a Sudrah. One who follows the right samskaras has a second birth, one who reads the vedas and understands them becomes a wise man and one who realises the brahma or the source of creation becomes a Brahman. Those seven mind born Rishis of Brahma are real Brahmins ancestors- parents of humen.

</quote>

In brief, all knowledge work was supposed to be handled by academic class Brahmins. Being born in a Brahmins family wasn't enough to get you into academics though. If you became a warrior you will be called kshatriya. Similary business class vaishya, and Shudras class existed to take care of rest of the social functions and creative endeavours. Profession like engineering, arts, temple building, city planning were all done by the 4th class.

I would argue this isn't any different from today. In order to become professor or researcher(Brahmin) you need a qualification. In order to become a soldier you need to join army. Entrepreneurs and business people drive the world of commerce. Similarly rest of the professions exist too.

Colonial Europeans turned this system into rigid caste based system. which slowly changed over to rigid system as society went into preservation mode as noted by dilippkumar in a comment.

India was the only society without slavery as noted by various travellers. Until English colonial forces destroyed it systematically, India had an education system in which major beneficiary were the so called lower caste of today. Here is another short summary with further references.[3]

[1] https://scroll.in/article/882736/caste-system-in-india-has-i...

[2] https://qr.ae/pN4tBC (Skanda Purana Vol.18 Book VI , Nagar Kanda , Chapter 239 , Verse 31-34)

[3] http://www.indianscience.org/essays/DHARAMPALINTRODUCTION(Pa...

drieddust··on Firefox usage is down despite Mozilla's top exec pay going up
Executive running Government firms often have no reasons to compete with the evolving market. Sometimes it is incompetence, other times its malice.

I don't know what it is for sure but seems like its malice. No one knows what deals they are making with the devil under table.

drieddust··on Commerce Department Prohibits WeChat and TikTok Transactions
Nations exist and so does nation boundaries. Why you want to pretend otherwise?

Chinese Communist Party puts unfair restrictions so why others should allow CCP to have free reign?

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
> You mean Mongols did not do general massacre

Based on my understanding Mongols didn't kill people for their religious beliefs. They killed entire cities if the resisted which is very different from killing population to attain title of Gazi by killing infidels.

I would be happy to learn more if you have other resources.

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
Of course I am not a mathematician or a historian and we digressed a lot into Indian history.

I was merely refuting the premise of this Pakistani propaganda article that Akbar was tolerant. By contrasting between Akbar's ordering of beheading of 30k non combatants with Maha Rana Pratap returning his enemy Rahim's family back to him safely I hoped to demonstrate that Akbar wasn't tolerant even for his time. I believe you are from India so you would know both stories especially of Rahim.

On the subject of attributions you do know chain of custody for Dirac's function? Secondly if democracy can be attributed to Athens then why not Vaishali? They both are dead and harmless. Indians are not going to claims royalties from rest of the world for running democracies. Why deny attribution where it is due and makes sense? Anyways we can keep that aside.

What if I tell you this cultural appropriation is going on as we speak. I hope you know that Yoga and Bhratnatyam are actively rebranded as Christian Yoga[1] and Christian Bhratnatyam[2]. This appropriation should be accepted just because India is not as advanced as compared to the first world countries?

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/can-yog...

[2] https://www.hinduhumanrights.info/bharatanatyam-and-the-art-...

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
There is various degrees of violence. In Indian context Kings fought each other to grab kingdoms but that did not translate into general massacre of public for their religious beliefs until Islam arrived.Of course this comes from my little knowledge of Indian History so I will be happy to learn more.

> some old Hindu science of flying machines, plastic surgery between humans and elephant heads. All lost because of outside invasion).

I do not subscribe to this nationalistic view. But then a lot of knowledge from India did get appropriated and lost. Take the example of Fibonacci series. Europe didn't adopt decimal numerals until 16th century and yet Fibonacci was able to invent his series?? No, he himself wrote I learned this from Indian and I am merely translating it. Yet it's called Fibonacci series with no attribution to its origin.[1]

Nalanda reportedly had 10k students, 2000 teachers, and 9 million books. When Khilji destroyed it, library burned for 3 months as reported by the historian of the destroyer himself so saying nothing was lost is just not real.[2]

[1] Liber Abaci

[2] Tabaqat-i Nasiri - Minhaj-i-Siraj

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
> In India's case, the whitewashing of Mughal rule was a necessity because there are still a substantial number of Muslims living in India ....

There are substantial level of German living in Germany, let's not teach them about Nazis? Interpreted other way you are advocating appeasement of people who already have superiority complex due to their religious beliefs.

History should be taught as it is? No lies. If Marathas were the aggressive towards Punjab and Bengal, teach it.

> I'm not sure of the answer .... ancestors.

How will you achieve that if you whitewash. Mature position requires understanding the past and then moving on.

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
> Far from it. This is from 1987.

Debate on Maratha history is still going on[1] other chapters of history is yet to be opened and taught.

> Far from it. Mongols, Christians, Huns ... I will run out of space if i have to keep mentioning all the ones that I know of.

Mongols were pretty inclusive and tolerant towards religion until they converted to Islam[2]

Hunas never succedded in invading India. I am not sure which history you have read. Last hun Mihirakula was defeated by Yashodharman and he too was a Shavite.[3]

Christians represent same Abrahmic idea so yes they were also brutal towards other religions but not to same level.[4]

> Might it be a projection of a collective low self esteem felt by a class of people who got left behind economically and culturally

Are you sure I am culturally "left behind"?

[1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/Maratha-histor...

[2] http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/history/history7.htm

[3] Rajtargini by Kalhana

[4] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
When I read history none of this was in our books. May be it got added now or may be Bengal have different books. On the subject of Maratha invasion of Bengal. Kings invading each other's territory is very different from carrying out raids to kill the infidels. Carrying out general massacre, destroying places of worship is unique to Islamic invasions.[1]

[1] A Self-Study Course on Political Islam

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
Ashoka never turned pacifist. He got converted in 4th year of his reign and Kalinga war was waged in his 8th year. He waged wars and prosecuted Jains and Ajivikas. Sources are Buddhist text Mahavamsa and Divyavadana so should be considered accurate.

Before Islamic invasion started, Hindu India had a rich history of religious tolerance with Ashoka as an exception yet he finds place in our history books and other great kings don't. Some example of tolerance from an era when killing people for their faith was normal in rest of the world.

When Zoroastrians were prosecuted in Persia by Islam, they found refuge in India. Today's India's biggest conglomerate TATA Group is run by a Zoroastrianian family.[1]

When a ship full of prosecuted Polish Jews Children touched the shores of Gujarat after refused entry by many state as they feared Nazis. Maharaj Digvijaysinhji Ranjitsinhji Jadeja took them in. Some of those kids are still alive.[2]

[1] https://www.tata.com/

[2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/how-the-indian-oskar-schindler...

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
I have updated my comment to include the original sources. I included the tweets because I first I learned from them.
drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
Yes it is political because they were political. It is because of them India's history education starts and ends with Mughals. Even Mughal's contampories like Marathas, Sikhs, Vijay Nagar, Ahoms kingdoms etc don't find any place in the history books?

Do you think these omissions from Indians History books are happen-stances:

- Dutch came to India before English but they were crushed by Vijay Nagar Empire.[1]

- Ahoms ruled the North-East part of India for 600 years and Mughals never succeed in defeating them. [2]

- Marathas were ruling the India when British invaded yet history books show Mughals as last rulers of India.[3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marthanda_Varma#Battle_of_Cola...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_kingdom

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
You can independently google story of Rahim. You don't need me for that.

Sacking of Chittod and subsequent killing of all the population is recorded in Akbar Nama by his own historians.

I am surprised you are running a startup in this domain and you don't know these trivias from Indian history.

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
Did you look at the details in those tweets? They further refer to original source material.
drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
Wrong, India survived because Hindus fought very hard. Entire Arabia, Iraq, and Persia fell within 30 years. Yet Islam couldn't reach even central India until 13th century not because invaders were tolerant. It was because they met resistance. Read [1] and watch [2]

[1]https://archive.org/details/HeroicHinduResistanceToMuslimInv...

[2] https://youtu.be/9HfPzUr-IKw

drieddust··on How Akbar came to love books despite never learning to read (2019)
what information makes you believe he was tolerant?
drieddust··on The World of Legacy IT Systems
AS400 is very much alive and stable platform with new release and adequate support available. It just ain't sexy and that was the main driver for declaring it legacy.
drieddust··on The World of Legacy IT Systems
Absolutely I have seen MGMT wearing "innovation" blinders only to realize nothing fucking was wrong in the first place.

Before declaring something legacy, a fair evaluation of the future business requirement and fitment of current solution is a must.

12 Years back I worked with an org who had an AS400 which they considered legacy. System is still running and serves the business need perfectly well. All plans to replace just wasted money.

Another company decided to implement a new centralized ERP without realizing that company's highly federated businesses which can also be considered a conglomerate of very small independent businesses doesn't need it and won't use it. Million went down the gutter before higher ups realized the sad fact and fired the CIO.

IT world is literred up with sorry tales like these.

drieddust··on China Built a Vast New Infrastructure to Imprison Uighurs
I don't think that is the case. Media is biased but I am not sure why Media wants to exaggarate atrocities on Muslims but convinently skips atrocities on other ethnic group mostly by the Muslim extremists.

I understand all Muslims are not involved but what stops Media from highlighting the atrocities of Muslim extemist group. Plenty of these groups exists but barely reported.

I am not sure if this is because of White guilt or Media houses are scared of Charlie Hebdo like scenario.

drieddust··on Using Microsoft Word with Git
Typical workflow with word documents required mutiple people reviewing, commenting,and merging or rejecting the comments. Microsoft Word's change tracking,comment, and review features are adequate for most people.
drieddust··on China Built a Vast New Infrastructure to Imprison Uighurs
As evident from my other comments I don't like CCP one bit. But while we criticize oppression, Muslim extremism which triggered this oopression shouldn't be pushed aside either.

Tibet is equally oppressed under CCP's boots for many decades now but nobody seems to be bothered.

I don't like this selective outrage of west.

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