2,308 karma · joined April 6, 2019
A complicating factor that weighs over everything is that there is a long history of terrible abuse of informed consent with less privileged patients, puerto rico is a trainwreck of abuse going back a century but there are many more. As an administrator I always felt that patients who are freely giving informed consent always have the right to try, however slim the chance of success. But, it can be brutally difficult to parse out those instances where influence, coercion or even misrepresentation are at play with a particular patient and family. Family dynamics of course can play a large role too.
Regarding gloves, gloves don't solve disease transmission from dirty hands. You need both hand washing and gloves.
In-N-Out does not as I understand it develop it's own Point of Sale system, they work with a vendor. What do you think would happen if In-N-Out had a location that was consistently failing to ring up orders or lose them randomly? Would the cashier blame the POS vendor and store management stand by and do nothing while the problem persisted? Would the system be rolled out without definition and documentation of workflow, reliability testing and proper training of the cashiers? Can we not operate our hospitals at least as well as we operate a burger stand?
I built that EMR, it was/is called ClearHealth/WebVista/HealthCloud. Your facility would never have bought it because incompetent management will only buy Epic. We solved the problem by buying organizations and replacing the incompetent management.
I also want to be clear that doctors are not by any means the only obstacle to resolving workflow problems. You being put in a position to protect patients from a business process of the facility that may accidentally result in their death is the literal definition of incredibly bad / incompetent operations. That software didn't magically appear and become responsible for ICU ordering magically on it's own. In this instance whatever insane people have been given responsibility for that implementation are responsible.
After consideration, this comment from a doctor, in a nutshell encapsulates so much of what is wrong. A doctor on the front lines alluding to staff burnout, thinking that people almost or actually dieing because orders are being cancelled inappropriately in the ICU is somehow "a software problem", while simulatenously praising the management, operations and results of their institution. Welcome to healthcare.
Responding to the request below for a specific example. Hand washing, you wash your hands when medically appropriate to prevent facility acquired infections. If you don't you are progressively warned ultimately leading to termination and/or loss of license. If instituted nationally this alone would save at least 5,000 lives a year. Good luck getting it instituted at most facilities.
A different example, diesel fuel and generator maintenance is a meaningful part of medical facility physical plant. A shocking number of facilities place procurement responsibility and oversight of this in the hands of a doctor who also has medical responsibilities. The results are as financially and operationally disasterous as you would expect. Data centers have similar requirements. Who do you think pays more and operates better?
Formularies are a sort of default medication lookup table. Most organizations have one that was created decades ago by people who aren't with the organization anymore. Review and revise them with someone who understands both the medical/pharmacological aspects of the drugs involved as well as their costs. Win for doctors, win for patients, win for insurers, almost no one does this. They have some clueless administrator carry forward last years formulary with minor changes or alternatively have a medical professional with absolutely no idea what costs are involved do it.
ACHC, joint commission, CLSI for laboratory, are groups that outline some very basic frameworks of how facilities should be operated. Less than half of facilities can meet even these extremely low bar standards for operations. It is difficult for me to see how many patients have been harmed by ransomware impacting hospital opertions, this is entirely preventable and no one on the hospital side has been meaningfully held accountable so very little will change.
A counter example is the pricing transparency regulations. Failure to meet those is resulting in multi-million dollar a year fines which is resulting in change. It is happening slower than people like or had really conceived of but it is causing some real meaningful change.
99,000 americans a year die from hospital acquired infections that are entirely preventable using procedures and operations (not surgeries) that are known and evidentially proven. It's just really hard to get all of the parts of the orchestra to play the same tune so those people die needlessly.
I think the HN crowd may be interested in learning more about TNM staging (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNM_staging_system) and the staging process in detail (https://www.facs.org/media/j30havyf/ajcc_7thed_cancer_stagin... pg 457 for prostate) . This was once "open source" but is now locked behind a proprietary API of sorts (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sa2Qlv03-E-nBJuUynZuFxIaMsO...)
These are US oriented resource links.
Regarding the posted article, there are two big related factors that the average patient has a difficult time appreciating. First is that "doing nothing and or waiting & seeing", even in 2024, is still the best course of treatment for a huge array of situations. The second related factor, is that the rate of preventable medical errors is absolutely staggering. In my multi-decade experience it typically hovers over 20%. As a patient myself I have been the victim of three near fatal preventable medical errors. So 1/5 of the time doctors are creating new problems and complications that are preventable if all of the known best practices at the time are employed, while attempting to resolve whatever is wrong with you. A troubling amount of the time the treatment can be worse than the disease.
Bottom line there are a lot of very incompetently run facilities out there, of both private, "private equity" and various form of public ownership/management.
It makes a great headline to say that a hospital can be "bought" but ownership and management of hospital systems takes a book to explain. Outside entirely vertical systems like Kaiser and even that has some complexity, hospitals are much more like medical malls than anything else. An ownership and or management company does not dictate what happens under their roofs in anything like the manner a private corporation like Coke, GE or Google would. 29 states make it outright illegal for non-licensed persons to own or manage an entity that engages in the practice or medicine. Most hospitals of any size over 100 beds involve at least dozens of seperately controled and managed entities. See "corporate practice of medicine (CPOM)" laws.
Finally I would add that measuring outcomes on an apples to apples basis is more or less an impossible thing to do. Lots of people don't like to hear that. Again something like HAI I think can be a useful general indicator as well as other measurements of preventable complications, but comparing outcomes at different facilities especially across size and location is more or less useless.
Executive compensation is an issue in a lot more industries than healthcare. I think that there are big problems there. The structure of hospitals as a medico-legal entity is a complicated business in most states. When you say "CEO of a hospital" it typically does not bear much relation to what you say when you say "CEO of Disney". In healthcare there is among other complicated things "corporate practice of medicine" laws which prohibit non-medical ownership of medical organizations. So a "Hospital CEO" may often be the head or a chairman of a foundation or entity that owns the real estate that a hospital uses or sometimes is just the practicing head of medice of a medical organization or any of a myriad of other byzantine structures. That doesn't make excess compensation any better but it's important to identify what someones role actually is and what they are compensated for. Most hospital systems are a little more like medical malls than any singular beast.
One other point I think is important, that I see come up a lot regarding deductibles, is that your deductible is most likely double what you think it is for a lot of situations. Particularly emergencies. This is buried in the minutiae of your insurance and relates to in and out and network/facility/doctor care having seperate deductibles.
I don't like the usage of "collapse". It's a weasel word. What they actually mean is that some meaningful amount of patients won't be able to receive a proper standard of care. That is a -- possibly avoidable -- tragedy.
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Technologies: Strategizer, Architect, Senior Engineer. Extensive experience in payments and healthcare including fortune 500. Created the open source HealthCloud/ClearHealth electronic medical record system.
Notes: I'm author of "Hacking Healthcare" for O'Reilly. Managed ClearHealth for 15+ years operating hundreds of US hospitals and clinics leading to a successful 2017 acquisition. Led the project that modernized Subway's payment infrastructure servicing 37,000 restaurants at 24 sandwiches a second.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duff-uhlman
Email: du@50km.com
Website: https://duffuhlman.com
In the US I can speak first hand as a former hospital executive that a lot more can be done to improve treatment paths for people with a wide variety of mental health diseases. Medical school can play a role but residency programs are a much more important element, at least in terms of how US doctors are trained. From history the best way to do this is to create a specific health system focused on treating those patients and to lead by example. I am not aware of such an effort but there may be one.
Off the top of my head, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19230461 from 2009 but there are many earlier studies as I recall.
Remote: yes
Willing to relocate: no
Technologies: Operations Firefighter, Strategizer, Architect, Engineer. Extensive experience in payments and healthcare including fortune 500. Created the open source HealthCloud/ClearHealth electronic medical record system. AWS, Linux, everything web/cloud, Node/PHP/C/etc, React/Vue, AI/LLM.
Notes: I'm author of "Hacking Healthcare" for O'Reilly. Managed ClearHealth for 10+ years operating hundreds of US hospitals and clinics leading to a successful 2017 acquisition. Led the project that modernized Subway's payment infrastructure servicing 37,000 restaurants at 24 sandwiches a second.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/duff-uhlman
Email: du@50km.com Website: https://duffuhlman.com
A good example I can think of personally is at McDonalds. It takes 22 finger clicks on the screen to order a medium iced coffee and approximately 140 seconds. There are numerous slow animations, the screens are slow to appear, slow to respond, multiple upsells, positions of buttons change on reflow after clicks. In person it takes "I'd like medium ice coffee light sugar", approximately 7 seconds for that and then the card processing time. Self service is 20 times worse.
Someone else mentioned theft reporting. Having recently spoken with a criminal defense attorney in a social setting, this is an out of control problem. He is in a medium sized city and has seen the number of shop lifting bans increase over 500-1000x. He would typically see a dozen or so per year but since self checkout became dominant in the area he is seeing thousands per year, nearly 1% of the population. This becomes a major problem in an area like this, if you get banned by walmart and safeway you have to travel 2 hours to get groceries, there are no other food stores. There is no recourse, the stores have no interest in trying to resolve these cases where, as the other commenter described, very common human errors resulting from terrible UI are criminalized.
In defense of the FDA, which I promise is not an instituion I have much affection for, they are asked to strike an impossible balance. More or less the same regulatory impulse that allowed Richard Sackler to build an empire on the killing of millions of americans is the same one that allows very sick people to access very, at times dubious, drugs and trials that sometimes save their lives.
Most of medicine is very centrally built around the "first do no harm" approach, even at the cost of lives by non-intervention sometimes. With the FDA most people want a "do some harm, some of the time for the greater good" approach which is a really difficult thing for a federal agency to put into practice. I think they do an especially awful job with it but I appreaciate that it is a really hard balance to strike.