144 karma · joined October 25, 2023
Is in direct conflict with:
"they don't show anything approaching sentience or self awareness."
Waiting for us to figure out sentience before we decide to apply morals is akin to OpenAI being in charge of determining when we have achieved AGI. The people in power have no incentive to declare it even if evidence is available because it destroys their profits indefinitely
This is the exact point where our conclusions diverge.
Why are they sending themselves so much "useless" data-intensive logs by default, from their non-paying clients that accounts for roughly ~95% of the userbase and from a profitable business perspective, largely ineligible for troubleshooting support? For me, the only logical conclusion is that the data is valuable to them.
As someone who also cares about privacy, hear are a few things that IMO suggest that free customers' logs are a part of their business model:
* Their documentation has plenty of references to security, but no references to privacy outside of the privacy policy.
* They have all but eliminated any revenue stream from average user when they made an unsolicted announcement that they upgraded their free plan to allow 100 devices and 5 users.
* The content they sponsor for marketing/advertising seems targeted for consumers instead of networking professionals. I don't see Cisco and Palo Alto Networks sponsoring every Linux/self-hosting podcast or YouTube channels for example.
* Even the flag-name for turning off logging is mild deterrent based on what you will lose (`--no-support`) as opposed to being neutral '--no-logging' or truly descriptive like most FOSS companies that are not pushing an ulterior motive such as '--no-analytics'.
* logs cannot be disabled for phones
* In my experience, disabling logs was perhaps the only thing that was not configurable through the GUI
I'm into privacy and still relatively new on the networking scene thanks to setting up OpenWrt on my router. Am I correct that when tailscale updates/hijacked resolv.conf, subsequent DNS resolution is passed onto them on visited websites even when tailscale is not being used? No, they can't "read" your traffic, but if I understand things right, they know every website you visited and for how long, which is more than enough data for a rich marketing profile. That was my takeaway before I jumped ship for a self-hosted solution.
My understanding is that they have the holy grail of data because they are getting all of your LAN, WAN and mobile network traffic. I'm not aware of (m)any companies whose business model allows access to all three? It's like if your ISP and your Mobile Network had a baby on your local server, and that baby reports every website you visit.
I do think that netbird's documentation is easier to read than tailscale's, but the tone does still assume a solid foundational networking background in places.
My uneducated guess is that the product is appealing to networking professionals, but a growing number of current/former tailscale users that are otherwise new to networking, but familiar w/ self-hosting. With the latter group, there's a steeper learning curve (that would also be there for headscale or most other self-hosted mesh VPN solution fwiw)
I actually made the jump from tailscale -> netbird last month. Definitely more work and learning, but much more aligned w/ my perspective of self-hosting and open-source software. (Yes I thought about headscale but the YouTube reviews of netbird won me over).
Ignoring the context of the past month where he has repeatedly said he plans on 'fixing' the bot to align with his perspective feels like the LLM world's equivalent of "to me it looked he was waving awkwardly", no?
The former is an admittedly frustrating aspect in our transactional relationships with companies, while the others are the foundations of a functioning society throughout our civilization. Conflating business interactions with society needs is a familiar trope on HN IMO
It takes 30 seconds to save the privacy policy and upload it to an LLM and ask it questions and it quickly becomes clear that their privacy policy allows them to hold onto data indefinitely as is.
I do think the plunge to leveraging a desktop/server across devices does require an understanding of ssh/rdp and tailscale/reverse proxies though, which is why it isn't as popular as it could be.
Big fan of Linux, but saying that Linux works on system76 while they have a tiny sliver of the Linux market share seems like a nonstarter.
What happened in 2023 and 2024 actually
Nitpicky but it's worth noting that last year's AI capabilities are not the April 2025 AI capabilities and definitely won't be the December 2025 capabilities.
It's using deprecated/replaced technology to make a statement, that is not forward projecting. I'm struggling to see the purpose. It's like announcing that the sun is still shining at 7pm, no?