ruleabidinguser

>. It's dangerous to become a thing,

Why?

My impression is that GCE is relatively young and growing very fast. To say Amazon won seems premature to say the least. This is an active battle.

I would like to use D if I could dump the GC, but it appears they don't make that easy, even though as you say it is possible. For me smart pointers make memory management seem not so daunting.

I'm not saying ads are worthless, I'm saying they don't have control over you.

That sounds like nonsense.

Im certain you just don't see the value in your new perception.

I recall it exactly. When you start to trust theory over reality I'm sure you've taken a bad turn.

As a kid I quickly learnt to distrust ads, so I'm not sure why you think kids can't do this. They may not be adults, but they're not robots either.

I never get the impression that people who think government intervention is good have done much research on the topic.

How is it worse for the consumer, though? I don't see how, under capitalism, its even possible for an abusive company to maintain a strong position.

Whys that? Is that an offensive thing to say? You seem to think I'm incapable of changing my mind, why? You don't know me, and you think you do. Unbecoming behavior.

EDIT: And downvotes, too? I've been insulted, and I don't take kindly too it, yet I deserve to be downvoted? Thats ridiculous.

The consumers, no? They get inferior products. Who wins? Seems like its just people who want a piece of the pie, and do they deserve it? Doesn't seem like it.

Who can say what would have happenned long term? My assumption is that a true monopoly is not sustainable, but I could be wrong. I don't think the evidence is there that microsoft would remain king for long.

Yea you're right I've overstated my position. Don't really see how vim is useful for excploring a codebase.

Yea, its certainly still al ong time, but I wonder why anyone feels the need to try and beat a monmopoly when they are at their best? I don't think the wider consequences of eagerly busting monopolies will be positive.

Their existence doesn't surprise me, but they deserve less respect for making foolish choices.

An idiot savant is still an idiot.

I'll welcome any points made for VIM that acknowledge the immense value provided by IDEs, but if I had already seen such points I wouldn't even be posting here today.

Every argument I've seen for VIM systematically denies:

* That programming is hard work.

* That making life easier is a good thing.

Its just an extension of the masochism that permeates programming culture.

As with all things, this advantage will wither. I heard Milton Friedman once say something along the lines "There has never once been a natural [not the result of government action] monopoly that stayed a monopoly for very long." People just need patience and faith in the free market.

Here is the key value provided by an IDE:

* Autocomplete. This deserves way more recognition than it gets. Having function signatures, documentation, overloads, types, available IN-LINE while you type saves so much work from programming and is essential to delivering correct code. If you want to be an effective programmer, this is a fundamental tool.

* Debugger. Easy breakpoints, conditional breakpoints, built-in profiling... Without these features, you will consistently produce inferior code.

I don't see how someone who calls themselves a serious programmer can throw away these exceptional tools.

VIM and other lightweights have their place, their place just isnt serious programming (by which I mean large software projects).

Whats more, VIM and similar tools make each step of the process, including incredibly simplke things like compiling and running your program, take exponentially longer and are similarly more xpensive to the programmer. I think most folks who don't believe this are simply in denial. VSCode delivers on these two features and is instantly an infinitely superior programming experience.

Its a cult.

I think you have to be a fool to use anything short of a full IDE unless you have no choice.

No matter how much you tweak it, you will never even start to scratch an experience like Visual Studio. Vim is a fundamentally weaker platform.

Thjis is just what Vim and emacs die-hards won't recognize. This is the value of an IDE. The driving force behind these editors' popularity is bad developers.

i suppose youre right

Do you know them personally?

I don't really understand what the benefit of it is.

>The discussion usually ends there :)

Personally don't think this should be a point of pride.

I;ve tried that approach, and its cumbersome to remember all the different commands, flags, combinations etc. I might need for each different project and for each different task. IDEs simplify this process dramatically. Its akin to GUI v DOS in terms of usability benefits.

Thats exactly my point, theyve written all the various features you might have to write yourself, and theyve integrated them for you.

Well sure we beat reddit I guess, and maybe I just don't post here enough, but I feel like the community is deteriorating. I used to hold this place to higher standards. Also I still don't think what I said was ridiculous, and its something I basically believe.

Heres the thing, its a cost you pay for every single project you start and every change you make to your build system. Emacs makes it possible but hard to maneuver, by my reckoning.

There are some really giant projects where that becomes reasonable, but for me thats just not the case. And if I were going to invest time like that, I'd rather invest it into an environment which has a higher ceiling for what it can do (emacs doesnt provide fast/rich/easy autocomplete, for example)

I do actually, and I should reword that to "not useful for serious programming." VIM to me is best used for lightweight, quick and short editing tasks. THats how I use it. For any involved work, you're going to want a debugger, you're going to want automated build tools, you're going to want effortless compile/run cycles and so on..

You don't really want to implement all of that in VIM because your work won't be portable.