selfmodruntime

This comment makes no sense

So you admit your workflow does not reflect in any way or form the needs and processes of even a small to medium org, let alone half a dozen teams or more? That's not a great point of few for someone with opinions that strong on purity.

How is this an illusion? Thousands of people work on React, Svelte, Vue, Chrome, Linux, etc. Most aren't paid

The guy above makes this point across the thread and I'm pretty certain he has never worked in a team on a complex app.

When these retorts come up they always degrade to two worthless arguments:

1. Ad hominem attacks on the original commenter

2. The arrogance and limited viewpoint that ignores the very fact that this can be observed by non-original writers of code, and that this scenario is so common that it coined an original term and spawned an entire industry of clean-uppers.

I've seen this exact scenario bankrupt firms and cost people smarter (but more arrogant!) than me their jobs. No handyman will ever shit on other people for buying and using tools instead of forging their own hammer. But somehow there's this facade of people on HN with this weird attitude.

The more I read of you the more I'm sure you're just putting on a facade. The effort needed for refactoring has nothing to do with "owning your decisions" or "being terrified", and your clients are certainly not paying you for it either.

If you're using React, you're using 80% of what the library exports. It's actually pretty tiny.

> This issue is more prevalent in the rust and js ecosystem where instead of writing a few dozens line, the dev brings a whole library for that (almost everyone that uses chalk)

Here's some news: If you build your pretty native binary for your target operating system or the browser, you're using tens of millions of line of code.

"Large applications" like hundreds of lines of code? Uh huh.

For reference, my last job at an industry giant had a frontend-facing monorepo of a million lines or two.

Thanks.

"I don't use frameworks, y'all can't program" - I mean, good for you, but I want to pay my bills and my clients sure aren't paying me to reinvent the wheel for the 20th time?

How large were these applications?

I find it very hard to believe you and blaming developers for using trusted library code to not re-solve problems, thereby earning a living, is a pretty harsh statement.

How are you convincing your clients that they should pay a senior to re-engineer solves problems?

I've worked at a dozen clients where, like in every software project, tech debt accumulated. Suddenly, when the DOM manipulation code or reactivity had bugs, I had to think about both sides of the coin - was the bespoke homegrown framework causing a weird interaction, or was is the component I worked on? One can hate React/Vue/Svelte or their models, but you can place trust in their maturity if you choose correctly

> The evidence-free claim here (that with frameworks you end up spending less) is all "vibes"

Is it? Because in my experience, this is flat out wrong and it's very easy to verify, and it is a tested hypothesis.

> The right side of the relation is supposed to represent using a framework, but this neglects c, the cost paid for not using the Nike method

You're committing a fallacy here: You're assuming that not using the method/framework comes free or cheaper. Why would that ever be true? React doesn't do DOM manipulation for funsies, if you foregoe a framework you'll be implementing reactivity, interactivity and performant code yourself. The browser is very barebones in that regard. The framework cost is always lower than rolling your own, and this isn't even the argument people are having. Non-Framework evangelists are arguing performance, never cost.

A framework doesn't come into existence out of thin air. If you choose one, you're working with a community of thousands of developers. I don't have to build my own reactive table, I can use TanStack table. I don't have to build my own playground, I can use stackblitz or storybook to showcase stuff to a client. I don't have to build my own cancellable asynchronous list, I can use a trusted library for that, too. My client doesn't care if I roll my own. They care about effect per hour spent.

Nope. I have more than 15 years in the industry. Sorry.

What „all“ the ways exist?

Tailscale is also neither complex or brittle. It is insanely straightforward and very robust.

No, it is the painful experience of a decade of frontend software engineering and consulting, thank you very much. I‘m not talking about someones blog here, I‘m talking about commercial, complex applications.

If you plan to sell a digital product or SaaS on the internet and your use case is more complex than a blog or a portfolio site, your „vanilla js purity“ will outgrow the project, fast, and it will become a mess. I‘ve never not seen it end this way.

I really have no idea where comments like yours come from. I‘m baffled each time I read it. You must be really, really far removed from any commercial browser development process.

In typical HN style, you are both pretentious and wrong. Javascript frameworks save you the complexity of an agent holding the entire library code in their context. For example, an agent can work with 2-4 react components for a current ticket without needing to know each line of internal React code.

When was the last time a website crashed on you?

Imagine if you could ship your desktop app in a natively running virtual machine, that is as perfect as it gets from sandboxing code and running a lightning fast JIT compiler instead of virtualization. It delivers a common user experience, digital accessibility, endless customization while being secure, it's free for developers and users, constantly updated and it delivers an absurdly powerful, while also perfectly printable markup and styling engine.

That's what a browser is. Your apps are native.

> There's enormous cost of manipulating the DOM from JS, as HTML elements get bound to JS objects lazily.

And yet, 95% of these "framework comparisons" and "anti-framework evangelists" build their opinions on examples that do little (if any!) dom manipulation after the initial rendering. Which is just not the reality of commercial products.

It's also used on a dead simple app. These comparisons are almost always using apps no more complicated than to do apps, which is lightyears removed from actual commercial products

Their biggest plus, which some HN commenters baffingly either don't get or ignore, is that another company and volunteers pay for maintenance. If you roll your own - and you will, if you're not using one for a larger app! - you're now paying for library code and your money making application, thereby making less in total per hour spent.

How does having an SSH CA help you roll out detailed access to hosts/ports/services with fine grained permissions via access control lists derived from your identity provider? How do you make sure you're giving out least privileges with a compliant onboarding/offboarding and audit process? That is where the real meat is.

If you've solved all these problems yourself at your org: congrats, you re-implemented Tailscale with a bespoke solution that takes orders of magnitudes more $ to maintain and audit regularly than just buying an industry trusted solution.

Tailscale is, all things concerned, really cheap. It costs less at my large org than a single engineer. Doing it ourselves would take a team. Maybe two. Once again, HM primarily comments from a naive engineer's perspective, not from a leadership view.

All of those countries (except the UK) have a ton of people who are cigarette smokers. For comparison, a third of french adults smoke tobacco. Most US adults who use nicotine don't do so via tobacco, with Japan (the third lowest in the group) having double the cigarette smokers than the US and France having 3-4 times as many.

No, it doesn't sound like it. Tailscale reduces complexity. It literally is key distribution with an ACL.

I work at a finance org with hundreds of engineers and thousands of technical users. You cannot be compliant with finance compliance frameworks using OpenSSH without audits and traceability and some source of identity management. That is exactly what Tailscale (or an alternative product) provides.

> and now, bugs

If you do it yourself, you now own that software entirely. Your comment lacks understanding of the complexity of real world scenarios.

Your use of OpenSSH in a single private network does not equate in any way or form using and distributing a non-ACL managed SSH client.

I think it's exactly this. The rendering capabilities in a true world model would include the entire domain it exists in. This takes a ton of processing power.

Object permancence is apparently a task so difficult that even our own brains and those of many species of animals struggle with it. Maybe the problem domain lies in the fact that compared to a world model, our world is continous regardless of the observer's capabilities. If a tree falls in a forest with no one there to see it, it still falls. The same isn't true in a world model's view.

It wasn't peaceful pre-colonialism either

Fingerprinting for the PHP version, a proxy will tell you what it is most of the time as well.

  curl -sI http://stealmybitcoin.com/
  HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
  Server: nginx
  Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2026 22:01:11 GMT
  Content-Type: text/html
  Content-Length: 162
  Connection: keep-alive
  Location: https://stealmybitcoin.com/

Edit: Not so easy for this. ProjectDiscovery's httpx could not find the php version. Interesting.