v0cab

Well I hope you make it clear exactly why raccoons are being put on a battleship, so that the candidate has a clue about the kind of logic he's expected to use and the level of accuracy required.

> There is a lot of variance in bus sizes, but not enough to put you off by more than an order of magnitude.

I didn't know that 'within an order of magnitude' was an acceptable degree of accuracy.

> Knowing what kind of accuracy is required is sort of part of the test. The parameters are vaguely specified, so you should know that you're looking at orders of magnitude.

I don't see how I would know that. I would just assume it was a stupid question.

>> I can just say 'two thousand' and that's a good enough answer.

> That would fit in a large duffle bag. If you told me that you thought you could only fit 2000 golf balls in a double decker bus, I would assume that you either put zero thought into answering the question, or that you did not have a good grasp of how to estimate things.

You're right that I didn't put much thought into it. But perhaps that's all the thought this problem requires.

> The interviewer wants to know that you can give sane estimates based on rough calculations. As the article explains, there are many, many situations where a programmer needs to be able to do this kind of thing. It's not about "seeing how you think". It's about seeing that you can think – at all – about estimation problems.

There's nothing to think about. It's not a well-formed problem. The interviewer is going to see me putting on a show, and all they'll see is that I can act.

> Maybe, after we estimate the number, perhaps we can estimate the time-to-fill based on various rates of child-miscreant golf-ball theft.

This comes across as a kind of punishment for asking stupid questions.

I am using a pseudonym.

I realise that things I write can be linked back to me, but I want to not make that too easy.

I haven't posted anything stupid.

Is the bus in space? Is it a toy bus? Is it a bus for aliens? Can I assume the bus is perfectly spherical? Is the bus a ghost? Do I have a ray gun that can shrink and enlarge things? Are the golf balls made out of water? Do kids keep coming along and stealing golf balls from the bus until it is perfectly full? etc.

> they'll make assumptions (and note the dangers of assumptions)

So is it OK to make assumptions or not?

> Ask some people how many golfballs fit in a bus. They'll be stumped. They'll have no idea how to proceed. They'll just stop, and look at you, and flounder.

Because, as ebbv said, there is absolutely no way they can get a decent level of accuracy that would be useful for any kind of purpose. Any estimate in such a situation would be thrown away as soon as Google and other resources are available. Therefore they effectively cannot answer the question, and the question is useless.

There's so many different kinds of buses, and it clear what kind of level of accuracy is required. I can just say 'two thousand' and that's a good enough answer.

The problem is, that isn't good, as the interviewer wants to 'see how I think'. But he hasn't really given me a problem to think about, so I have to just put on a show for him. He hasn't seen how I think at all; he's just seen me putting on a show based on what I think he wants to hear.

The hoops are invisible in this case.

It's a matter of putting on a show for the interviewer. But we don't know what kind of show. A show where we make assumptions about things? or ask questions? A show where we try to get as 'real-world' an answer as possible? or one where we assume things to make our lives easier? Why not just assume it's a toy bus and nothing can fit in it? Is that a clever and funny time-saving technique, or am I mocking the interviewer?

But yeah, the candidate has to do what he has to do if he needs a job. I think that's what you're saying anyway.

It isn't a well-formed question. There's so many different kinds of buses, there might be furniture, it might be toy bus, the doors might be open, it might be an alien bus, it might be full with people or superglue; Who knows? The question is so loosely-formed as to be nonsensical. You might as well ask "How many/much object(s) can fit (insert spatial relationship here) (a/an/the) thing(s)?"

> Experience says it's the first thing that springs to a relatively small percentage of minds, actually.

Can you explain in more detail about what experience lets you know this?

> No, someone who didn't ask about the kind of bus isn't necessarily under the impression that it's a toy problem. Again, experience says that for a large percentage of people the problem, or more specifically any problem of the ilk of this problem, is completely overwhelming.

Also I'd like to know how you know these people are 'overwhelmed' with the problem itself, rather than just with not understanding the point of it or not knowing whether its OK to make assumptions or ask questions about the type of the bus etc.

How do you know that it's OK to make assumptions like that? How do you know that a quick estimate is acceptable? Is this level of accuracy acceptable? How do you know?

I can't get the point of this.

The interviewer wants to know how many golfballs fit on the bus, but he doesn't even know what kind of bus? He hasn't decided what things are on the bus, and how many of them, and whether there is a driver, and what kind of track he's going to be driving the bus on? And he probably doesn't know why the golfballs are being put on a bus at all? And he doesn't care as to what kind of accuracy this estimate is being made, as long as it just seems I've gone through some kind of motions?

This is ludicrous. It doesn't resemble any real-world task.

"Asking about an irrelevant problem makes it clear that this question is about your logical process and not about your knowledge related to this job."

1. But it doesn't make it clear (that my logical process is being tested). This problem fails in its purpose.

2. I don't have a set 'logical process'. I just try to do my job, and do what I need to do to solve problems.

3. You should at least try to come up with a reason why golf balls are being put on a bus. I don't know if I can engage the problem-solving part of my brain if there's no real problem I'm being presented with.

> "Short bus? Long bus? Double decker bus? Coach bus? VW Bus?" Since I'm not sure of the relevance of the question, I choose a Matchbox Bus. The answer is 0. 0 golfballs fit in a matchbox bus.

You never know how far they want you to go with their game. This could mark you as a genius, or as an ass.

Everybody knows there are different kinds of buses. It is the first thing that springs to everybody's mind when you ask "How many golfballs fit on a bus?".

Someone who didn't ask about what kind of bus is under the impression that, as it's just a toy problem, the kind of bus doesn't really matter, and they're just supposed to pick an average kind of bus and play along with the stupid game.

Then why wouldn't you ask a real-world question like that, rather than a stupid one about filling a bus with golf balls?

Can I just say "I assume it's about 2000." and be done with it? I mean, that's a good enough estimate when we're not actually going to be putting golf balls on buses and are just chatting about it.

I just want to keep my identity here separate from my IRL identity. The more info someone can piece together to me, the more chance they'll find out who I am. It's not (at the moment) a case of having changed my mind about something I've said.

I like to go over my Reddit posts regularly to remove (or edit to neutralise) comments which haven't drawn much interest from Redditors and aren't particularly important, but which do give an extra titbit of info that could be used to identify me and isn't available in my other comments.

I enjoy the anonymity that lets me express myself more freely without having to worry about colleagues' judgements and retribution (for example).

I thought this site might operate like Reddit, where comments can be deleted and edited.

I remind you that it's not only the HackerNews regulars who can read HackerNews comments.

Well that sucks. I should at least be allowed to anonymise an older comment.

I apologise if I have misrepresented you. You are right, I do not know what your views are.

The problem is, talented people (some of them, not all of them) are not interested in ridiculous problems like this. It comes off as making the applicant jump through a hoop and watching them squirm for your own amusement, rather than as anything productive. No-one's interested in golf balls on buses, because filling buses with golf balls is a waste of time. Talking about it seems a waste of time.

And the question is stupid. Buses are different sizes and of different designs, you know. We have double-decker buses in the UK.

If you must use this class of problem, at least make it more related to your field or narrow down the kind of bus and what furniture is on it. And explain to the applicant why you would ask a question like this. "We want to see how you think" isn't an adequate explanation.

Ability to edit or delete comments more than a day old. At least let us 'delete' our username on a comment.

It is very unethical. Don't judges have ethical guidelines they have to follow?

The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?

> I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets.

He did explain why that wasn't being done.

> Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it.

Wouldn't that involve some complaining?

Anyway, I notice you didn't say that to wilfra. Why doesn't he get accused 'complaining'?

Why didn't you try to solve the issues in your post with action instead of with complaining?

It is interesting and helpful, because the reasons that these beggars are operating in Sweden was given (internal migration within the EU).

If he hadn't said it, replies would have expressed surprise that the prosperous Swedes had resorted to aggressive organised criminal behaviour, and there would have been speculation on why that is.

There would also have been questions on why the government hasn't done anything about it yet, which he also addressed in his comment.

Stop telling us what we can and can't talk about.

His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals).

I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely.

I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.

It might just be someone doing it as a 'job', to supplement their trust fund, or their government benefits, for instance. Or they might be using the money to buy meth and support meth dealers.

It might affect your insurance premiums. Or, search for 'headache' too many times and you might become uninsurable.

Yup, it struck me how similar it was to my own situation, though in a non-tech job.

I wish I'd handled it like this guy (the fired guy) handled it.