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Comment by van_developer | Hacker News Reader

Vancouver is prob the most multi cultural city on earth and everywhere I've worked here is full of female executives, so American problems with ID politics don't manifest here. Just walk the streets for 10mins you will hear a dozen different languages.

The problem is I get paid 2x the local salary to work for US startups remotely, and paid in USD a stronger currency. Everybody I know works remotely for Toronto, or US companies so I imagine power execs from around the world don't want to come here for the same low compensation and high income tax reasons that force us lowly devs to contract outside the province. I haven't seen much local hiring with options either, and if they do offer options they are tiny so why would I dedicate a huge chunk of my life to make somebody else's company rich while making half the salary of my clone in SV who has full options.

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It's great to hear that Vancouver is really diverse, it's just disappointing that it wasn't portrayed that way then.

it is diverse but at the same time isolated into ethnic enclaves, people generally tend to stick with their own race group for the vast majority of vancouverites and it's very cliquey.

There is a cultural difference in work ethics in Asia and the West. Like I repeatedly saw an overwhelming tendency for Asian engineers to overwork to appear more impressive while non-Asian engineers seemed to leave exactly on time. Overall, I think it's pathetic that there is this outdated working ethic still being played out amongst the Asian community but it's also why the salaries are suppressed, why overwhelming workforce of startups in Vancouver are Asians. The stereotypes is being self enforced by Asian engineers and it was pretty sad to see. One senior Asian engineer (probably making less than $70k/year) loved pointing out how early I was leaving (leaving at 5:00pm is too early apparently) and that I wasn't doing enough. He explained how in Asia he used to work on weekends and that this was the norm. It's pretty much a shit show but I saw this happen at other startups as well and pretty much put me off from ever working again in Vancouver.

In fact I'm not surprised that lot of vancouverites here are working remotely for American clients. The work/life balance culture is horrid for the most part, far less pay and competitive landscape commoditizing each other. There are plenty of sweatshop employers in vancouver who fully exploit this fact. However, enough is enough, once you remove yourself from such toxic job market you start finding out just how much money there is to be made outside of Vancouver. I still get recruiters trying to pitch me on some job and they are becoming increasingly pushy and spammy. Not all of them are bad but it appears the problem in the article is very real, there are literally not many willing engineers who respect themselves to put up with low pay and crappy work/life balance. And so far the HN vancouverite users seems to be exactly doing that, working remotely for a market outside Vancouver or physically moving to American cities. I can also see new grads are looking for jobs outside of Vancouver, so the brain drain is no longer the case where somebody relocates but as Holmes illustrates in the article, it's becoming decentralized.

If you quit your job in Vancouver, and you found a gig for American client, it would make financial sense especially because the cost of living does not match up to the average salary here.

A city is more than just cost of living and housing prices. It is nothing without the people and community. there was a recent debate of how lacking Vancouver is in terms of community and that people were largely feeling isolated in Vancouver. I remember someone from Brazil accurately pointing out how difficult it was to make friends or even talk to people. On the surface they seem receptive and helpful to newcomers but how dare they attempt at some friendship or extend the conversation. This also spills into the night life scene in Vancouver which is pretty much dead on arrival, shuts down after 1 AM, lack of disposal income means a lot less happier people and more people spending time at home, smoking reefer and indulging in some activity with friends they probably knew since kids.

If you saw the bar culture here it's pretty much everybody keeping to themselves at their own tables and not wanting to be bothered. Like even a friendly attempt is typically shot down quickly. It's almost like people are on guard and they think that you want something from them when all you are doing is just small chat and trying to meet new people.

I'm willing to put up with Vancouver for a while longer until I figure out which city I want to work remotely from but it certainly will be even a faster acceleration of the trend where the brain drain starts with someone exiting the local job market and finding new ones south of the border. Thanks to remote jobs, this brain drain is far more quicker and eventually devastating to the future of Vancouver's tech scene, since not even it's own inhabitants are willing to work here, how could they convince SV engineer to work here? It's hypocrisy at best.

The ethnic enclave thing is overblown. I think enclave is too strong a word. Is it really any different than in other cities (where supposedly everyone is perfectly mixing and singing kumbaya?). There are a lot of foreign students in the city and they do stick together but then again I'm seeing foreign students of different ethnicities hanging out together - they're all in the same boat. Plus Vancouver has the highest ratio of mixed couples than any other Canadian city. Let's have some perspective and realistic expectations on this issue.

It is not at all overblown. There are real enclaves in Vancouver, just take a look at Richmond. Lot of shops and restaurants don't even have signs or menus in English, it's all in Chinese.

I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves. Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English? Or how often do you see a group of mixed cliques compared to single race cliques even amongst those that grew up here? Even for those that grew up here, the cliques are largely based on ethnicity. We might identify as Canadians but for the visible minority, the Canadian experience is vastly different from the mainstream one.

Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean it goes away. Who says other cities are singing kumbaya? That wasn't my point, I was just offering a more reality based view that diversity that was being discussed above is largely politically correct and doesn't help to the overall discussion.

If you want to talk mixed couples it's happening in the States as well. But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of the same level of cohesiveness. Plenty of visible minority Canadians still see themselves identify as their native ethnicity. Why is this? How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media? Apart from olympic medalists, celebrity or some power figure, the vast majority of visible minorities in Canada are not at all viewed in the same light.

I've seen a Pakistani taxi driver who used to be a surgeon and a Taiwanese pianist working as a janitor. Can these people honestly feel like they are accepted and treated as Canadians? Can we say that they are given the same equal choices and opportunities? No. Instead you see incompetent people running the governments, people with half the wits running companies. Don't fucking tell me we live in a perfect world where visible minorities aren't given a hard time. No, minorities have to work harder, better and faster to get to the same place someone who is readily accepted by the mainstream because their ancestors 'took' the land that didn't belong to them and continues to oppress them. This land was taken by European settlers at gunpoint, and if you live by the gun, you die by the gun. There are no masters or prvileges being handed out based on race explicitly but it does not rule out that there still exists a deep divide on who is accepted as equal or not. Obviously that Pakistani surgeon shouldn't be a taxi driver but he has to because of the invisible hand which in turn is influenced by invisible walls we've built long time ago and still exists. It's getting better but we sure as shit can't pretend that the emperor wears no clothes.

edit: msie, I can no longer reply and you are going to just reply to every sentence without even making a cohesive argument for your case so I have to assume you are trolling. Your superb ability to use the character '>' is duly noted.

I said good day, sir.

> There are real enclaves in Vancouver

So what? Diversity doesn't exclude this. But are you saying it's a BAD thing?

> just take a look at Richmond. Lot of shops and restaurants > don't even have signs or menus in English, it's all in Chinese.

There was a survey done by the municipal govt because of the Chinese sign controversy. 4% doesn't mean a lot. Vancouver has been home to many immigrant groups. There were Greek "enclaves", Italian "enclaves" and Ukrainian "enclaves" and Chinatown was an early Chinese "enclave". What's different now?

It seems that when people say "enclave" it's code for an isolated community that's perceived as a threat to the unity of the host community. I would say THAT definition of enclave doesn't fit here.

> I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves.

Yes, it's understandable. If you and I were in Paris we'd be sticking together a lot and have Canadian flags on our backpacks.

> Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English?

I can't say, but I have seen white people hanging out with Asian Canadians and Canadians of other ethnicities.

> Plenty of Asian Canadians see themselves identify as their native ethnicity.

Is that a fact? I think many Asian Canadians identify themselves as Canadians but are dismayed that other people don't.

> But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of cohesion and a sense of unity.*

This difference is simplistic, overblown. Have you not seen the news of the rift between whites and blacks in the US? Of the discrimination against Muslims? Only recently did they legalize gay marriage but Canada has been united behind the concept for years.

> How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media?*

That is a problem the mainstream media has and is really depressing.

>I've seen a Pakistani taxi driver who used to be a surgeon

>and a Taiwanese pianist working as a janitor. Can these

>people honestly feel like they are accepted and treated as

>Canadians? Can we say that they are given the same equal

>choices and opportunities? No.

You've just added the last paragraph and it completely changes the complexion of your post for me. Yes, I agree.

1. Groups of foreign students aren't ethnic enclaves.

2. You've made numerous edits to your original post.

3. The initial post just mentioned diversity but you took umbrage with it trying to point out how flawed our diversity is. I was taking issue with that.

Overall, I think it's pathetic that there is this outdated working ethic still being played out amongst the Asian community

No, that's just plain wrong. I've seen/heard many instances where non-asian managers are overworking their staff. This is a problem with the entire tech industry (actually in other fields as well), don't blame it on one ethnicity.

of course but what's interesting to note is that there were no managers overworking the Asian engineers, they were doing it to each other. I never blamed it on one ethnicity I just saw the discrepancy that was commonly acknowledged by other people working in the industry.

of course but what's interesting to note is that there were no managers overworking the Asian engineers

Well, that's your opinion of what you saw. Have you asked the Asians why it is they "overwork"? And what of the non-Asians that were working past 5? What would you call it?

I already went into lengths to discuss why I think this might be more prevalent amongst visible minorities in my other post so just read that. Also this came out of a discussion with several Asian engineers/workers from wide variety of industry not just tech in Vancouver.

In fact, non-Asian co workers thought it was unfair and actually spoke out against them working overtime without need but it fell on deaf ears.

Also I'd use > or the quote formatting to make it clear you are replying to my excerpts to avoid confusion.

Ok, have a good night.

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