Comment by jacobolus | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jacobolus | Hacker News Reader

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Does a steak enthusiast need to enjoy a thin cut of pure gristle, cooked until it’s blackened on both sides? Or a haut cuisine “deconstructed steak” which can be eaten in one bite?

Does a coffee aficionado need to enjoy a cup from the local 24-hour diner which was made by over-extracting cheap stale beans and then leaving the pot to sit on a hot pad for hours? Or a cup of instant coffee mixed with non-dairy creamer and two tablespoons of sugar?

Would a code connoisseur need to have an aesthetic appreciation for a corporate 500 kloc Java project that does nothing useful?

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Someone who is deeply satisfied to eat anything called “sushi” is just a very hungry person, and someone who has an insatiable thirst for every type of wine is an alcoholic.

Or in other words, there’s a big gray area here. There is a very wide range of quality in most things, from «entirely unpalatable and probably poisonous» to «divine once-in-a-lifetime experience», as well as a wide range in particular tastes and preferences. Different people have different standards, and that’s okay.

One group of people can like student art films with no action and long philosophical monologue voiceovers by entirely unlikeable characters. Another group of people can like superhero movies with a predictable plot, flat characterization, and lots of explosions. Both groups can plausibly say they like “movies”.

Your reaction to the parent says more about you than the point the parent was trying to make.

>[If] you only like top-shelf sushi prepared by world renowned chefs....

>[If] you will only drink wine that you've read is good...

Both of those are examples of a second-handed appreciation for the subject matter. In the first case, the person is substituting pricing signals and reviewer opinions for their own independent judgement. In the second case, the person is not only substituting reviewer opinions for their own judgement, but also denying themselves even the opportunity to learn how to judge the subject.

An enthusiast or connoisseur is a person with a first-handed view of a subject. In order to develop a first-handed view, a broad understanding of the material, associated topics, and direct experience with the full breadth of a subject is necessary.

In the case of sushi, the enthusiast needs to understand the varying quality of sushi available, methods and techniques of preparation, the flavor profiles of fish, the effect of garnishes and sauces, and so forth. You can't appreciate great sushi until you understand bad/mediocre/good sushi.

In the case of wine, the enthusiast should have extensive experience with wines at many price points, understand the production methods, understand types of fermentation, know the various types of grapes, and so forth.

In my experience, enthusiasts for a specific topic are almost never snobs. I've met beer enthusiasts who don't necessarily enjoy common beers, but they are nevertheless in awe of the production process and uniform quality. I've met wine connoisseurs who dislike many $30 bottles but generally enjoy $2 wine from Trader Joes (aka two-buck-chuck).

It's amusing that you had to even respond - both commenters simply painted two extreme strawmen, both worthless: * A snobby connoisseur who refuses to consume nothing but the very best in every category (The implication not that their palette is ACTUALLY so well-refined, but rather that they refuse to give anything "lesser" the time of day) * A ravenous addict who consumes absolutely anything (The implication not that they are low maintenance and preference-less, but that they are driven by almost mental illness)

It's pretty obvious most people are not either

I agree with you completely.

I'll add the point that if all you've ever eaten is the best of the best, you don't really appreciate something as much as if you've experienced the middle or lower ends.

Anecdote: I dry age my own steaks, and I've realized that people don't really appreciate them as much as if they're eaten side by side with a "control" steak that's unaged.

Similarly to your dry aged steak anecdote, I has two bottles of the same brand of port, one aged 10 years and the other 20. The 10 year tasted great to me, but once I had it alongside the 20 year, I realized the 10 year had a somewhat unpleasant aftertaste which I hadn't noticed drinking it on its own.

I don't know what to even say about this. But I think the point was that you don't necessarily have to be "deeply satisfied" by a whole range of things, but realize that there are good parts of just about everything. Not to mention there was probably a little hyperbole understood in there.

For example: I love beer and consider myself a beer enthusiast. I've brewed it and know all about just every aspect of it. I have traveled to remote monasteries in Belgium to try excellent beers, and enjoyed drinking Dos Equis on a hot summer day by the pool. Most self-described "beer snobs" look down on beers like Corona and the like in favor of some "craft" IPA. Dos Equis isn't my favorite beer, but I recognize its good qualities and when a situation calls for it.

I think the poster was just saying that enthusiasts enjoy many aspects of something across a wide range and don't have to gravitate toward only the "divine once-in-a-lifetime" things.

Of course, maybe I'm totally off base.

My point is it’s fine for a “connoisseur” to only like sushi made of the freshest highest quality fish, perfectly cooked rice, real wasabi, etc., prepared by a specialist and eaten immediately, at a $$$$ restaurant.

It’s also fine for a different “connoisseur” to enjoy store-bought California rolls made from imitation crab and left sitting on a shelf until the rice is stale.

It’s overly reductionist and pretty patronizing to insist that the former doesn’t really like sushi while the latter does (No True Scotsman, and all that).

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P.S. The mainstream brands of Mexican beer are pretty good. Most of the big Mexican breweries were started by German immigrants in the mid-19th century, and there is now a long beer tradition there. Corona’s extensive marketing to the US about tropical getaways and lime slices, etc. has nothing to do with their product or their brand in Mexico, and I find it fairly silly, but it was extremely successful.

>>My point is it’s fine for a “connoisseur” to only like sushi made of the freshest highest quality fish, perfectly cooked rice, real wasabi, etc., prepared by a specialist and eaten immediately, at a $$$$ restaurant.

I disagree for two reasons. First, it is important for any connoisseur to experience a wide range in order to truly appreciate the items on the finer end of the spectrum. Someone who only eats high end sushi is a pretender, not a connoisseur.

Second, low-end restaurants sometimes contain amazing dishes that any connoisseur may enjoy. Similarly, cheap wines have won blind-taste competitions before, even when they were pitched against high-end, expensive wines.

>it’s fine for a “connoisseur” to only like sushi made of the freshest highest quality fish

There are quite a few chefs who believe the best sushi is from fish that has been 'curing' in the cooler a few days.[1] not necessarily the freshest fish. That's because the fish takes on more flavors as it ages. The notion of fish needing to be fresh is more prevalent in north American than it is in Japan.

Remember, some of the first sushi quality fish were flown over in planes back in the early '70s as a way for JAL to make money on the cargo hold of their planes.

[1]http://www.wisebread.com/what-you-dont-know-about-sushi

> No True Scotsman

The No True Scotsman fallacy doesn't apply to conversations where the topic at hand is discussing what makes someone a Scotsman.

I think that recognizing why a less recognized realisation of a dish is good is part of being a good connoisseur

>P.S. The mainstream brands of Mexican beer are pretty good. thailand, too. singha is an excellent beer.

I think his point is much simpler than you're making it out to be.

Many people might get sucked into watching a Marvel movie because it's a cultural phenomenon and the best executed form of super hero entertainment.

But only an enthusiast will find pour through the back issue bins looking for hidden gems.

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