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Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

TL;DR: If you're interacting with a kid, try to avoid saying, "you're so smart!" and instead say, "You've picked this up really quickly" or "you're such a hard worker". If you tell a child they are smart then they will stop trying either because they assume they can get by on their intelligence or because they are afraid of failing and loosing your praise about how smart they are.

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"You worked really hard on it that!" seems a bad thing to say without having observed the kid working hard. I know if I'd been told I worked hard on something that came easily, it would have cost the speaker credibility.

My tentative plan, for my son, is to phrase it as a question. "Did you work hard on this?". If so, praise the hard work. If not, "let's find you something more challenging".

One problem with this type of idea is that kids think in very different ways than you. This question could lead to your son thinking you don't trust that he's working since you're constantly questioning him. I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea for sure but I've run in so many cases with my kids where my "clever" way of communicating with them came back and bit me in ways I never would have considered. And since they can't necessarily communicate things well it could fester or direct his thinking in directions you won't know about for a long time.

Parenting is hard. :)

> I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it.

The distinction I was drawing wasn't between having worked and having slacked, but having had to work and having a task easy enough work wasn't needed.

More generally, I do take your point - no plan survives contact with the enemy :p

One issue which is neglected when this topic comes up is confusing the method of teaching vs what you are trying to teach. What you are trying to teach is the value of working hard and not only relying on being smart. The mechanism that is being used to teach this is praise. But praise is an external motivation. We know that people work best when they have an intrinsic motivation. That is not to say that external rewards cannot be used. But they should be used with other forms of reinforcement. With our daughter when working with her we focus on encouraging her to keep on trying when encountering some difficulty. And also having her focus on the sense of satisfaction from having completed a difficult task. Personally I know I feel a greater sense of satisfaction after having actually worked for something compared to being able to do something based more on intelligence.

Just try to give credit for the things they did, not for what they are.

Eg if they paid attention in class, or if they took good notes, or if they did the homework, or if they studied -- credit that. Hopefully as a parent you'll have some idea of how they're spending their time.

But I absolutely agree that saying something false is not going to do them any favors [although they might learn that you have no idea how they spend their time].

You're absolutely right. Thank you for your suggestion, I think I'll change my own phrasing if I didn't witness the hard work.

Sure, lying is unhelpful. The point is to praise the positive qualities that are under the recipient's control, such has effort, persistence, decisions. Generally, praise them for what they DO, not who they ARE.

I wouldn't characterize it as lying, so much as making an assumption.

In addition, the work being praised needs to be effective.

I disagree. If your child does something to the absolute best of his/her abilities, but is not very effective, isn't that still praiseworthy?

I have a two year old who exhibits no mastery of the English language, but I praise her when she tries out a new word on for size and keeps attempting to perfect it.

You're praising effective practicing habits. You can praise learning from mistakes. That's great.

I always took "A for effort" to be extremely patronizing because I was trying to do the thing right.

The problem is the "A", not the "A for effort". "A for results" just highlights an arbitrary bar that is likely too low or too high.

I guess a modification on that accounting for the expected performance would make sense.

It might be praiseworthy, but I was talking from the perspective of using praise to improve attainment. Dweck has written about the misapplication of her theories in recent years: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev...

I think it's probably more important that it's aimed at being effective than that it is genuinely being effective.

Also, obviously perhaps, just try to follow your sons/daughters progress, so you can praise/comment on what was actually hard for them.

Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal.

Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. The reality is that everyone has different gifts in different combinations, and as a parent you want to help your child to both discover their own gifts and to appreciate the gifts of others. And you want to do that without imparting a judgment on the relative value of different gifts. Since "smart" is not well defined (does it mean good at math? or clever in solutions? or quickness of retort? depth of vocabulary? Etc.) I have sought to try to tie a gift to the context where it helps have an impact on the world (second concept above) which helps the child understand how they can contribute to an overall project or how others can contribute with their overall project.

The generic advice for parents is to 'praise the accomplishment not the child.' which seeks to turn the child's vision of their place in the world outward. However I have seen that be interpreted as "my accomplishments define me" which can be a problem as well. So I gave up with advice, and stick to goals.

I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination].

So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the success -- the A -- to the work that they did].

Saying "you have such a good vocabulary" is a compliment, but it's not a useful one. Saying "your reading has really helped you develop your vocabulary" might be better?

They get As on tests because they answered it right.

Perhaps the test was just too easy to the student that any compliment will sound false or unreal.

Example: to challenge myself in the (any name you give to the class you're in when you are 14) I would challenge myself giving me just one minute to each answer in amath test. Any compliment would be weird.

Yup. "I appreciate that by continuing to develop your vocabulary you've developed the ability to quickly absorb the concepts you read about or hear discussed."

You just have to pass the message "you are important and loved as you are" separately from feedback to a particular task. Your accomplishments do not define you as a whole, but do define the mark you honestly receive.

I was aware of this research for my first kid. Telling them how hard they worked just gave them an excuse to quit later. "This is too difficult! You said so!"

Kids are hard.

Kids are good at making excuses regardless. Logic only slows them down a little bit.

"Yes, it's difficult. The important things are difficult. It's not too difficult for you to do. You can do better each time you try again."

But doesn't every praise, every comparison create a narrative for the child. A narrative that the brain learns to lean on and uses to form self-identity ( hard-worker, good boy ect).

for example, Now the child has learned associate praise( and love) with being a hard worker. This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape.

I think this a form of child abuse, to destroy child's spirit with praises, comparisons etc. Yet society sees this a something positive. Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment, kids already have great deal of intrinsic motivation why do we need to praise him.

Why is working hard a bad thing? In what world is working hard ever a bad thing?

You're conflating "working hard" with drudgery, or working hard at a job. Praising children for working hard is praising them for their drive. I hope to raise a driven child. Drive is the enabler for acting out your internal desires. I'd congratulate my kid for working hard on solving a puzzle or getting better at playing a game.

I do think that stressing taking care of your mental health is very important. Sometimes downtime is needed.

So, you can't give your child guidance on good behavior? Anarchy parenting?

There is a difference between praising effort when effort is needed, and praising pointless effort that is just self-punishment.

Later in life children will be put in situations were being unable to work effectively and put in effort will have really bad impacts on their lives. Preparing them to be able to cope is for their own best.

That does not equate to teaching them to be good little worker drones regardless of their own happiness.

> kids already have great deal of intrinsic motivation why do we need to praise him.

Because not receiving praise and positive attention is soul destroying and leads people to seek other ways of getting attention. In the absence of positive attention, any attention - including punishment will do.

Got a kid? Try ignoring them, and see attention-grabbing behaviour escalate dramatically in an amazingly short time span. From my son was 2 and to this day (he's 7), withdrawing attention has been our primary means of discipline, and it is scarily effective. When he was 2-3 we'd limit it to ignore him for 20-30 seconds at a time.

(In fact, it works with adults too - just try shifting your body away from someone to punish behaviour you find rude or offensive. It's crazily effective with most people)

So given that you almost certainly will praise your children if you want them to thrive, the question is what to praise to help them do as well as possible.

Praising them for effort does not mean praising them only for that, or praising them for working too much. It means praising them for effort in preference to praising them for results. But also praise them for other things, including ensuring they get enough rest and take time to play.

Why can't children learn for their own enjoyment

Have you never met someone whose spirit was broken as a kid, as they struggled to earn praise, but their successes or even struggles were never acknowledged? It's practically a character archetype. Kids hunger for approval from their parents, the same way you hunger for approval from your heroes.

there's no escaping setting a narrative. refraining to praise or compare also sets a narrative. so given that, how can you expect a parent not to at least try to build a good one for their child?

"This is now his framework for his life, a prison he can never escape."

pfft. one's "framework for life" isn't any more durable than anything else.

I also like a phrase that I know from sports, "you really showed me something today".

It is positive feedback based on performance and not a acknowledgement of inherent and innate abilities. Bronx tale might say it best, "there is nothing sadder in this World than wasted talent".

Edit: The article suggests otherwise, that praising ability leads to better outcomes than praising efforts (however, only under the conditions of success).

I grew up in a line of engineers and problem solvers.

As a kid when I'd do something cool and show my parents/relatives, they didn't neither of these approaches - no talking about how smart I was, nor about how much work I'd done. We just talked about how cool whatever the cool thing was.

It was great.

Yes. This is also why I nudge my kids to try things that require work no matter the ability (say chess, where there are always better players) versus things graded against a narrow peer group (Say math, where once you're "at level" the teacher pays less attention.)

I hope this doesn't lead to praise overall can undermine motivation. The mere support and personal validation a child can derive from doing something would be a great motivation.

and does that conclusion create a different and objectively better response?

kids know what synonyms are.

Real TL;DR: This is a big load of BS from people who know nothing about children OR life.

I'm going to keep expressing my awe at how clever my kids are every chance I get. You tell yours to work hard all you want.

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