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Comment by dllthomas | Hacker News Reader

"You worked really hard on it that!" seems a bad thing to say without having observed the kid working hard. I know if I'd been told I worked hard on something that came easily, it would have cost the speaker credibility.

My tentative plan, for my son, is to phrase it as a question. "Did you work hard on this?". If so, praise the hard work. If not, "let's find you something more challenging".

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One problem with this type of idea is that kids think in very different ways than you. This question could lead to your son thinking you don't trust that he's working since you're constantly questioning him. I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea for sure but I've run in so many cases with my kids where my "clever" way of communicating with them came back and bit me in ways I never would have considered. And since they can't necessarily communicate things well it could fester or direct his thinking in directions you won't know about for a long time.

Parenting is hard. :)

> I've found I can usually tell when my kids have actually worked hard on something or slacked off so if they're slacking I find other ways of talking about it.

The distinction I was drawing wasn't between having worked and having slacked, but having had to work and having a task easy enough work wasn't needed.

More generally, I do take your point - no plan survives contact with the enemy :p

One issue which is neglected when this topic comes up is confusing the method of teaching vs what you are trying to teach. What you are trying to teach is the value of working hard and not only relying on being smart. The mechanism that is being used to teach this is praise. But praise is an external motivation. We know that people work best when they have an intrinsic motivation. That is not to say that external rewards cannot be used. But they should be used with other forms of reinforcement. With our daughter when working with her we focus on encouraging her to keep on trying when encountering some difficulty. And also having her focus on the sense of satisfaction from having completed a difficult task. Personally I know I feel a greater sense of satisfaction after having actually worked for something compared to being able to do something based more on intelligence.

Just try to give credit for the things they did, not for what they are.

Eg if they paid attention in class, or if they took good notes, or if they did the homework, or if they studied -- credit that. Hopefully as a parent you'll have some idea of how they're spending their time.

But I absolutely agree that saying something false is not going to do them any favors [although they might learn that you have no idea how they spend their time].

You're absolutely right. Thank you for your suggestion, I think I'll change my own phrasing if I didn't witness the hard work.

Sure, lying is unhelpful. The point is to praise the positive qualities that are under the recipient's control, such has effort, persistence, decisions. Generally, praise them for what they DO, not who they ARE.

I wouldn't characterize it as lying, so much as making an assumption.

In addition, the work being praised needs to be effective.

I disagree. If your child does something to the absolute best of his/her abilities, but is not very effective, isn't that still praiseworthy?

I have a two year old who exhibits no mastery of the English language, but I praise her when she tries out a new word on for size and keeps attempting to perfect it.

You're praising effective practicing habits. You can praise learning from mistakes. That's great.

I always took "A for effort" to be extremely patronizing because I was trying to do the thing right.

The problem is the "A", not the "A for effort". "A for results" just highlights an arbitrary bar that is likely too low or too high.

I guess a modification on that accounting for the expected performance would make sense.

It might be praiseworthy, but I was talking from the perspective of using praise to improve attainment. Dweck has written about the misapplication of her theories in recent years: http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2015/09/23/carol-dweck-rev...

I think it's probably more important that it's aimed at being effective than that it is genuinely being effective.

Also, obviously perhaps, just try to follow your sons/daughters progress, so you can praise/comment on what was actually hard for them.

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