Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by waterlesscloud | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

waterlesscloud

Why is everyone calling these soldiers kids?

There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum.

View on HN

There's a good chance the pilots at least are older than most of the people reading this forum.

Do you have a basis for your opinion, or are you just making things up?

Actually, I already know the answer to that question. The average age of all active duty military is 28. 37% of the Marine Corps is between the ages of 17 and 21 [1]. And when you remove all the higher ranking officers (who are not very likely to be gunning for an Apache), the average age gets even lower.

Based on this poll [2], it appears the average age of HN is between 21 and 35. The data from the HN survey appears to have been taken down; that would give a much better answer. Regardless, your wrong in saying the average reader of this forum is probably younger than the military personal flying the helicopter. At best you can say it's unclear.

[1] http://www.slideshare.net/pastinson/us-military-active-duty-...

[2] http://news.ycombinator.net/item?id=800158

EDIT: For the record, the parent post contains 100% factually incorrect information and this post contains a refutation with cited facts. Currently the voting split is 9/-1. This is an emotional issue, but let's try and not be so reactionary.

EDIT2: The parent is factually correct because waterlesscloud is referring to the age of the pilot, whereas I thought we were talking about the gunner (the person whose actions are in question). I also assumed the marines were involved, which is also incorrect. Sorry for the false accusation.

Marines don't fly Apaches, the Army does, so Marine age data is completely irrelevant.

Helicopter pilots in general trend older than ground grunts, due to training requirements and so on. And many of the Apache pilots in Iraq were/are reservists, so they trend older as well.

The first female Apache pilot already had 20 years of service when she was assigned to an Apache. The oldest British Apache pilot is 54.

It's not something some kid does right out of highschool. There are no teenagers flying Apaches.

I don't know, which is why I said "a good chance", but my estimate would be that the average Apache pilot is in their 30s.

I may be mistaken, but I believe both crew of an Apache are typically at least E-7, so, at a guess, 25-30-ish at the low end.

Is the pilot also the gunner? Because I would think the person that pulled the trigger would be the one we should talk about. When I said kid, I was talking about the gunner. It's the gunner's decision making we are evaluating, after all. I don't think the age of the pilot matters as far as this video is concerned. In fact, your points about the age of helicopter pilots reinforces my point. Maturity is required for positions of great responsibility.

The Apache has a pilot and an observer/gunner. Both positions are pretty highly skilled -- the observer has to know how to use all the targeting electronics, etc. You would have to be crazy to spend God-knows-how-much on an Apache and then put a 19-year-old in the back seat.

Ok, fair enough. I appreciate the corrections.

Aviators are commissioned officers, who are usually 22 at the youngest (quickest way to a commission is a college degree). Most commissioned officers are older than that, of course.

You have to be under 33 to get into flight school, usually: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armytrng/ss/rotarypilot_2.htm

Once you've graduated flight school you'll continue serving as an aviator for some number of years. Unlike enlisted, officers are given a perpetual commission which may have a service obligation attached (if you're an ROTC or Academy graduate, for instance) or not. Also, I gather that a lot of Apache pilots are warrant officers. Warrant officers are generally previous enlisted with a LOT of experience--these guys are generally in their 30's or so.

If they are pilots, they are officers most likely (or Warrants), which means they have at least a 4 year degree and often a Master's before entering OCS and skills training (skills like flight training which takes about 12 months). Sure you can fast track some of this (there's a flight school program that's only 9 months), or you could get your education at West Point or something, and get out of flight school at maybe 21-22, but that's not the norm.

I'd put their ages no younger than 23 on the low end. More typically mid to late 20s with a few in their 30s (usually Warrant Officers).

The point of waterlesscloud's post is that we shouldn't assume things we don't know. This is also the point of your post, I think. Also you need to brush up on statistics if you thing your logic proves much of anything.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com