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Comment by jameshart | Hacker News Reader

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jameshart

For context, the NHS is one of the largest employers in the world. The list[1] currently goes:

- US Department of Defense

- The Chinese Army

- Walmart

- McDonalds

- The NHS

And The NHS's staff are all far more likely to actually have to use a computer and email in their day-to-day work than most of those Walmart and McDonalds employees.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_employers

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As an anecdote, having worked as a contractor for the DoD, the amount of mail received (internally) that is not relevant to your actual work or job is somewhat astronomical, 90–95% for me. There are many, many lists, warnings, notices, digests, alerts, etc.

We sometimes get situations where there's a semi-important note in a daily newsletter, and the group secretary decides to copy-paste it in an email to the whole group. Then the level 1 manager doesn't look at the To: line and forwards it to the whole group again. Then our level 2 manager gets the same information from someone else and forwards it to the entire group as well. I'll get the exact same information about today's health and wellness walk or whatever upwards of 3-4 times.

Having done some affiliate work with the VA, I can confirm that this is indeed the case.

McDonalds doesn't really belong on the list as they include employees of franchises. Or if does than there are some other organizations that belong on the list as well -- such as the Roman Catholic Church.

> such as the Roman Catholic Church.

The RCC does not provide a world- or even countrywide emailing system for clergy people, maybe except the Vatican. I did a little gig for a church group once, chances are high that most of them are technically illiterate and are happy if some dude like me throws 'em a Wordpress template and a (back in the days) free Google Apps mail account.

I don't think that bradleyjg is asking about the technical literacy. He's asking "What qualifies as an employee, in regards to that wiki list?"

But it is fair comparison here as they might end up using the same technological infrastructure unlike the Church.

Indian Railways is another large employer with unique technology problems.

It looks to me (based on outdated statistics [1]) that the Roman Catholic Church would come in at the bottom of the list, with "just under a million". If you can find better statistics, Wikipedia has a handy "edit" button for you to use!

[1]http://www.tldm.org/News11/DevastatingDeclineReligiousOrders...

why does the accounting designation of a "franchise" imply the employee shouldn't be counted ? They wear a uniform that says McDonalds, they show up 40+ hrs/week at a building that has "McDonalds" written on it. The product they sell has McDonalds written everywhere on it. Advertisements say "go to McDonalds", not "Go to your nearest McDonalds Franchise". What makes them not an employee of McDonalds ?

If the franchise owner doesn't pay its employees, they cannot go to McDonalds headquarters to get their money.

If somebody sues a McDonalds shop and gets awarded a large sum of money, they cannot go and get it from McDonalds headquarters.

If McDonalds were to go bankrupt, emplyees would still have a job (possibly not for very long, as your employer may decide to close shop, but he might also consider continuing under his own name or to start working for another franchise organization)

(Having said that, McDonalds exerts quite some control over what their franchisers can and cannot do. It would not surprise me if judges, in some/many, would rule McDonalds to be responsible for what happens at its franchises, for example in cases involving hygiene)

so basically its done to gut workers' rights. The person behind the counter isn't an "employee" but a "third-party contractor". How clever. But yet if you protest "inequality" a whole segment of the population will write you off as being a leftist hippie as if nothing's wrong.

If there is ever a violent revolution in our lifetime, I think future generations will read about this stuff in history books as foretelling omens. And I'm talking about the bigger picture here, not just MCD:

* You're not an employee, you're a contractor.

* You have "rights", just not the same rights as the shareholders you work for.

* Don't hate us, you were harmed by a third party, take it up with them.

* Vote for tweedle-dee next time instead of tweedle-dum, tweedle-dee is "for the people" (meanwhile corporation paid equal amounts to both candidates).

I see the bigger picture as eroding the personhood and agency of the poor, through the most elaborate and creative accounting and legislation imaginable.

No, it'a not done to gut workers rights. The workers are still employees, of the franchise owner. It is done because expanding through franchises is a lot quicker and less risky than expanding company owners stores, because someone else puts up the capital and assumes the risk of failure.

There's also the point of view that the franchisees are in the burger flipping business (and employ burger flippers), while Mc Donalds the parent corp are actually in the real estate business. (It's not _entirely_ true, but it's a quite plausible explanation of how their business works...)

This is wildly inaccurate. It seems like you've taken the arguments against e.g. Uber assumed that they apply to McDonald's. The employees not being McDonald's employees is a consequence of the franchise model, not some nefarious plot to strip them of rights. They are so clearly "employees" and not "contractors" that not even the most disruptive SV company would attempt to push that past the IRS.

> a consequence of the franchise model

what a coincidence that a "consequence of the franchise model" is the inability to unionize, since each franchise is owned independently. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the structuring of the franchise, does it ?

It's true that the franchise model is in practice an impediment to unionization. But this argument represents a huge shifting of the goalposts from your original incorrect claim that they are contractors and not employees.

They can still unionize because they are still employees. Franchising is a perfectly normal business structure in industries like fast food and supermarkets, just like cooperatives exists certain other industries.

This is actually being actively questioned in court. MCD provides significant technology to it's franchisors with regards to scheduling employees. Unions are asserting that this scheduling means they are a primary employer, and thus a Union would be able to collectively bargain with the entirety of MCD.

The uniform may say McDonalds but the paycheck doesn't.

The fact that McDonalds doesn't pay them anything, but a franchisee who is a McDonalds customer does. Actually that's kind of definitive for me...

It's frequently the case that they will not get 40 hours a week.

> NHS is one of the largest employers in the world.

Yet nobody can be found in that entire throng who can command an e-mail server into putting a swift end to a runaway thread.

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