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Comment by jmcdiesel | Hacker News Reader

Well, cheating is only to be expected in a system that puts a score/grade on the pedestal.

The point of school (American school, at least) isnt to learn, its to get a good grade. When the goal is a number, than 'cheating' is simply trying to achieve the goal.

If the goal was to actually learn, the "cheating" that you see in schools would become "collaboration" - much like in a workplace with quotas and ridiculous metrics, people will cheat the system - in a workplace who values output quality first, you end up with collaboration between employees to reach that goal...

The problem is - 90% of us went through the school indoctrination of "the grade is the goal" ... and carry a lot of that mentality out into the work force.. and at worse, many of them start companies and align their business goals for their employees with that same standard..

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Though I don't disagree with your argument that grades weigh to heavily in American education, I disagree that "collaboration" and "cheating" are the same. There are certain, rote skills you need to take away from school and on which you need to be evaluated individually. You must know how to read, do arithmetic and algebra, understand civics, geography, etc. The problem with encouraging collaboration over evaluation is that evaluation is still necessary to determine whether kids are learning what they need to learn.

I think we all remember that kid in school (or college) that joined a group and coasted to grade. I know those people where I work, too. They know little and contribute nothing. We do not serve them by letting them get out of school without the knowledge they need.

So I agree that grade-centric education is poor, but can also not reject either rote learning or evaluation as being an important goal.

The point of school (American school, at least) isnt to learn, its to get a good grade. When the goal is a number, than 'cheating' is simply trying to achieve the goal.

Aka Goodhart's Law[0].

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law

The education system ought be multi-purposed. Some people want school to get them a job. Some people want school to give them a 'well rounded education' on matters like history, American civics, math, sports, sexual education, etc. Some businesses want schools to correctly identify and promote talent, for better hiring signals. Some people view school as a way for preparing for college, where a student might choose specialities.

These are all goals which are harmonious to societal health.

Burning my karma, but I can't resist; lots of students in my high school agreed that collaborating in sex ed was far more beneficial than studying solo.

I don't get it

When he refers to "collaborating in sex ed", he isn't actually referring to studying, but rather to teenagers having sex. Similarly, "studying solo" refers to masturbation rather than actual studying.

Having sex is better than masturbating.

Really? He means intercourse is more fun than masturbation. HTH!

The education system boils down to attempting to certify that someone knows what they claim to know.

This so that said someone can be slotted into place in the company production line.

Yep. Education isnt the goal, menial job placement is. Its cynical, but also true, that an educated populous would grind America to a halt, because we're reliant on people doing a lot of menial jobs... and educated people dont do those jobs...

> Education isnt the goal, menial job placement is.

I disagree. Plenty of times through school I heard complaints of "When will I need this in the real world!" and numerous comments online complaining about education (particularly arts and social science curricula in university) not preparing people for jobs.

Plenty of things I learned in primary school, high school and in my Engineering degree are not applicable to my day job but did make me a more educated person.

It's funny to witness the education system get simultaneously criticised for not preparing people for the workforce and also only preparing people for the workforce.

> Plenty of things I learned in primary school, high school and in my Engineering degree are not applicable to my day job but did make me a more educated person.

It doesn't matter. There must be something that can be taught to you and later used to grade you. Whether it's maths or arts or history of the good deeds of Comrade Stalin, it doesn't matter. What matters is the series of filters, at the end of which is entering the job market. Even the parents don't care what you're being taught - only that you are good at it, so that you can go to better higher-level schools, and get a better diploma at the end. Only few parents and teachers with ideals give a shit about the actual content of the education material...

As for job usefulness, 90% of stuff you'll have to learn on the job anyway.

As for job usefulness, 90% of stuff you'll have to learn on the job anyway.

Of course. Education is about laying the foundation, giving you a bounty of contexts with which you can make faster associations and more quickly learn what you need for the job.

"Plenty of times through school I heard complaints of "When will I need this in the real world!" and numerous comments online complaining about education (particularly arts and social science curricula in university) not preparing people for jobs."

Both of these are correct - and they corroborate my point. The skills taught, they don't prepare you for a real world job - they teach you to stay in line, as few questions, and do what you're told. Thats what you need to be tought to work in a factory or plow a field... or stand behind a cash register.

They don't prepare you for "good" jobs... they prepare you for menial jobs. If everyone came out of high school with real knowledge and real skills, nobody would run the cash register at the gas station for minimum wage...

Not sure why you are being down voted. Perhaps people are just bitter at school.

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