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Comment by timr | Hacker News Reader

"This is powerful support that the age of the ubiquitous bachelor's degree may soon be over."

It's incorrect to interpret this article as evidence for an anti-intellectual world-view. Nothing in the article suggests that bachelor's degrees will be unimportant in the future, particularly for the best jobs. The article also points out (correctly) that people without college degrees make less on average, and have less reliable employment.

If anything, this is a disturbing piece of evidence that jobs requiring skilled labor are becoming less prevalent. However interesting the trend may be, I don't think it's a trend to celebrate. I'd rather live in a world where college education is in demand, than one where we're sending kids to vocational school because there's no point in trying to do better.

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You're lucky if you encountered many intellectuals as an undergrad.

But actually I think you're right - skilled white collar jobs will die out before skilled or unskilled "blue collar" jobs do. People always will need a broken car fixed, or a wall in their house repaired. The world doesn't necessarily need brand managers and analysts. Most think-work jobs in offices (which college is preparing you for) are non-essential in the grand scheme of things.

I encountered a lot of intellectuals as an undergrad, actually -- and I didn't go to a particularly great school. An undergraduate education is worth what you make of it. If you hang out with idiots, you'll find idiots. Everywhere. But if you're the type of person who would succeed without a degree, you'll have far more opportunity if you can finish college. It's a fact.

Also, you've entirely missed the point of what I wrote: if we do end up living in a world where skilled jobs die out before unskilled jobs, we're in trouble. Hundreds of years of human societal progress have depended upon education and technological development. When that trend goes the other way, our society is well on its way to decline.

When I look over the comments in this thread, I can't help but noticed that 90% of them can be summarized as "I knew some stupid kids in college who did things I think are useless; I knew some kids who didn't go to college and succeeded; therefore, college is useless." It's a logical fallacy, writ large. And when you start associating symbols of education with effete snobbery, you're engaging in anti-intellectualism, no matter what you've accomplished in life, or how many books you read in your spare time.

I honestly don't know why my (parent) comment deserves to be voted down into the weeds, but it makes me a little sad that we've reached the point where a group of "smart" people can so utterly dismiss a factual comment in favor of group-think. If you don't think college is worthwhile, that's fine. But it's still a fact that a college education is associated with higher lifetime income and greater job stability. And I stand by my assertion that if this trend ever reverses itself, our society is in trouble. Glorification of blue-collar labor is a fad reserved to those nations who have the luxury of a lot wealth to lose.

I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble.

Regarding intellectuals at university, I also met a handful, and I bet the school I went to was much worse than yours. That said, it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get a better job. At worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild.

"I didn't miss your point, I just didn't re-iterate it. I am in agreement with you, but I am pessimistic. I think we are in trouble."

Fair enough. Sorry for misunderstanding. I was/am mainly replying to the general anti-intellectual attitude on this thread, but I did misinterpret the tone of your remark (I was under the impression that you thought it was okay that white-collar jobs might be diminishing).

"it seems hard to argue that advanced education in the USA is promoted as a place for intellectual advancement. At best, university is marketed as a way to get a better job. At worst, it's the place where Girls Go Wild."

I think that the marketing strongly depends on the school, but yes, some schools do focus on promoting the career training aspect of college. Nevertheless, my feeling is that (with the exception of schools like ITT and the University of Phoenix) the marketing is distinct from the experience. Once you're in college, you've got huge opportunities for learning that you wouldn't otherwise.

The people in this forum who dismiss college as an unnecessary affectation of the elite scare me. It's one thing to be philosophical about the value of a philosophy degree, but it's totally another to assume that college is useless because you can always get work as a plumber (or a coder). I don't think they realize how much the well-being of plumbers (and coders) depends on the people who create new knowledge and technology at universities.

I never knew that I had to have a bachelors to be an "intellectual". I refused to join Mensa even after I could have, does that make me "not gifted"?

I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the uninteresting middle, and depends a lot on what school you go to, how much you apply yourself, and other factors. Sure, you might learn some things from school. Are these really things that you couldn't learn outside of university walls?

Just saying that a Bachelor's degree isn't helpful to a lot of people doesn't make anyone anti-intellectual, any more than advocating squeaking through a 4 year degree in "University Studies" at Podunk U. makes you pro-intellectual. Being an intellectual is a mindset. A Bachelors degree is a piece of paper that says you did whatever was required to get said piece of paper, which probably didn't involve being an intellectual 100% of the time. That what's I was trying to get at with my unfortunately-snarky-sounding Mensa comment above.

I realize that this part of your comment might actually have been suggesting that if we declare a Bachelors as useless for a bunch of people, the masses will decide that stupidity is an acceptable state of being. If that's the case, I think we should be honest and admit that someone squeezing through a crap degree just because everyone says he should isn't going to cure him of whatever problem allows him to look at learning and knowledge with such a care-free attitude. If someone isn't capable of understanding why learning is important or, worse, is looking for any excuse they can find to tear down people who value education, there's a problem that's being ignored way before they even think about entering college.

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