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Comment by PaulRobinson | Hacker News Reader

We have a "whiskey club", and regularly go to the pub where I work.

We don't do it at lunchtime. We don't do it during the working day. 5:30pm on a Friday? Let's have a glass of whiskey together.

Somebody joining/leaving, or we haven't been out together for a while? Let's go to the pub after work one evening.

There is a #drinks channel in Slack where people who fancy a drink after work co-ordinate, and several of will grab each other once a week for a couple of pints.

That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think.

The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too.

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> As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think.

Except for the non-drinkers in your team. I suspect that they either

a) feel left out, because a non-drinker at a pub has a boring time, and has to keep justifying their empty glass

b) probably miss out on important decisions if a majority of the important people in a team are present, which is bad dynamics

c) maybe your team doesn't have any non-drinkers. What does that tell you in terms of diversity / inclusiveness?

I'm not pointing fingers at you specifically because you mention explicitly making plans around people who don't/won't drink, but i think there should be more awareness around this, especially since it can seep into the culture quite insidiously, and invisibly.

Some workplaces have sporting clubs that people participate in to grow closer to their coworkers. Yet if you don't like tenis, baseball, basketball, golf, or hiking then you are out of luck.

Every social activity will exclude people who don't like the activity by default. There's no real working around this.

Even if you just have a 'talking' club, you exclude people who aren't natural extroverts or find large group conversations to be maddening.

In essence, there's no way to be perfectly fair... so at best you can have different choices to try to be as inclusive as possible with limited time.

Absolutely true, also goes for video games, board games, or even going to movies or baseball games.

With rare exceptions, I'm a non-drinker. Nowhere in Europe have I ever had an issue ordering a coke instead of an alcoholic drink, even when hanging out with people getting completely shitfaced.

Is this seriously a thing in the US? Feeling like you have to drink if you're surrounded by people drinking? I keep hearing stories like that. Nobody is going to judge you for not consuming alcohol - if anyone does, they're certainly not people I'd want to hang out with regardless of whether drinks are involved.

It doesn't hurt not to give a fuck, once in a while.

It's not a problem for anyone other than the overly self-conscious, who are looking for reasons to explain their anxiety. Literally no one cares.

I believe I was rejected after a job interview because of not drinking.

Another boss I had any a different job told me he fired someone for not partying with everyone else. If you went to these parties and didn't drink, the boss would harass you all night.

I agree with you that many people are just self conscious, but it's not exclusively that way.

Both of your cases sound like shitty places to work.

I was once rejected from a job interview at a DC startup because I didn't order a beer when they took me to lunch.

This seems a reason so stupid to reject somebody that either a) they didn't like you but didn't want to tell you the real reason, but didn't care enough to think about a plausibly sounding fake one; or b) you dodged a major bullet as these people had seriously messed up priorities. I'd bet on a) but can't exclude b) completely of course.

Even if that is what they said, do you honestly believe that was the real reason?

Beyond the slightest doubt.

Well, it's safe to say you dodged a bullet then :)

Interesting. What do you mean by self-conscious ?

https://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2014/01/26/how-to-be-... for examples.

The tl;dr is that people who are insecure will attempt to rationalize their feelings, and this frequently includes feelings of judgement and persecution from others where none exists.

It's not that people will judge you IME, but that it's really fucking boring.

What's boring about it?

Unless being drunk is your idea of fun (in which case it seems doubtful you'd be a non-drinker), I cannot understand how drinking liquid A at a party is any more boring than liquid B.

As a person who does not necessarily enjoy drinking (nor does so very regularly), I would say that being sober around people who are drunk is objectively less enjoyable than being drunk around drunk people.

In fact a graph of my enjoyment as a non-drinker (in my experience) would probably be inverse to a graph of the enjoyment of the people getting progressively more shit-faced.

Drink soda water w/ bitters. Looks like a drink, tastes good, and satisfies anyone actually drinking.

I drink regularly; but every now and then I'll go a week or month without drinking. I'm currently in the middle of one of these periods; but I've still gone out to happy hour or events that involved drinking every day since it's started. I manage to have just as much fun sober drinking soda + bitters.

Slightly OT, but do you have a recommendation for bitters other than Angostura? I like it, but I'd like to diversify my home cabinet.

Peychaud is probably the second biggest brand. Since I drink this at bars, it really depends on what they have on hand. Most good bars will have a selection of 5-10+ different bitters. I like grapefruit bitters; I've also had really good spicy chili bitters. Many like orange bitters. Just ask the bartender for recs, they usually love chatting about this stuff.

The best part of this drink is that they rarely charge me anything for it. I'll usually tip a couple bucks per drink, and everybody ends up happy!

I'll give Peychaud a look. Thanks for the rec.

Fee Brothers make some decent bitters, I have an Aztec Chocolate one that's really good with soda or in drinks.

I'll check them out. Thanks.

> satisfies anyone actually drinking.

If your culture is one where that's necessary then the entire management chain should be fired.

Whatever you choose to do, some subset of the team will end up being left out. Some of my team occasionally go out for a drink+meal. Usually when some remote workers are in town for the day, and we go out after work. Yes, it excludes people with families/other commitments. But lots of other activities would exclude exactly the same people; you can't force the whole team to be sociable after work hours.

We do these things:

1) We don't make any decisions when team members are missing; they have to be done during work hours when everyone is able to participate 2) There's no obligation to drink (why would there be?); several of the team don't drink, and there is no pressure to do so, they get soft drinks/tea/coffee/whatever they like

As someone who is very shy and introverted, it's one of the few times I actually go out socially, and it's a time to unwind and have a chat with your coworkers and associated friends/partners/family. I don't think doing this has any negative impact upon the rest of the team, so long as you don't do any serious discussion and decision making which excludes others.

I'd also like to point out that this kinda does leave out the women. I'm at an age where most of my friends are getting married or having babies.

If you're pregnant, this basically means that you can't be a part of the team's social gatherings for at least 9 months straight.

It's ok to get a coke or water at a bar.

I can no longer drink, due to medical issues. I'd still go out with my team for the bonding, and probably just leave early every time. I really like how the Chef Community Summit has drinking and dry events, like Game Night. Making inclusivity a goal is fun for everyone!

I once received a bottle of wine as a Christmas bonus from the founders of the small startup I worked at. I was the only person on the the who didn't drink and was pretty offended. Especially since it was well known that I didn't drink since this company celebrated "beer thirty" every Friday.

>was pretty offended

You were offended by a gift? Just say thanks and give it away or throw it away.

The vast majority of company gifts are useless to many people. Most people can cloth themselves, buy drinks for themselves, buy bags for themselves, etc and have no need for whatever crap the company is getting them as a sign of appreciation.

Unless they demanded you chug the wine in front of them, you really should not have offended yourself this way.

> You were offended by a gift?

If I give an observant Jew a kilo of bacon as a gift, why shouldn't they be offended by my being an arsehole?

Same thing.

Jew here. I wouldn't be offended. I'd thank the person, then find someone who could use it.

And if the person knew I kept kosher but still offered the bacon, I would laugh it off and then donate it.

Being easily-offendable is not a virtue. Being gracious is.

If the gift was specifically chosen for the individual, yeah, I can see being offended. In my experience, once companies reach a certain size, gifts are purchased and given in a one-size-fits-all manner. Inconsiderate, perhaps, but likely not intended to offend.

It was a team of 7. Including the two founders.

If you work for a company that has "reached a certain size", you should be aware that you'll have groups of people that make certain one-size-fits-all gifts inappropriate. Like pork products or alcohol in any country with a non-trivial number of Jews and Muslims.

Well known you never drank or well known you didn't drink at work?

Well-known that I didn't drink at all.

There is very little good that can happen when a company serves or provides mind-altering drugs to its employees. That includes alcohol.

And also coffee of course. And sugary drinks. And chocolate[1] (won't spoil the link but the first phrase mentions "opioids" - like heroin, you know). I'd suggest just give out distilled water. Preferably without any container, so to not contribute to the pollution.

[1] http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5132052_chocolate-affect-person...

A lot of good can happen, from a pleasant meal with wine to a fantastic night that the participants will never forget.

"That does not mean we are drunk when coding. As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently. Not a problem, I think. The downside is that for people who don't want to engage in this or can't (have to look after family, etc.), it can feel exclusionary, so we spend some time making sure we do things with those people too."

Sounds like a more balanced view of what I've seen at some companies. Implies grown-ups are in charge.

>"As for team dynamics, it means we know each other better and bond more frequently"

Is drinking actually bonding though?

Very much so! Not talking shit-faced, but just normal drinking. It's one of the fastest ways to get to know a person, a lot of people naturally let their guard down, and it provides a casual atmosphere to get to know each other.

It also provides a shared experience that is an easy conversation starter when meeting sober later on "hey, thanks for last night! Where did you end up going after.." etc.

Obviously YMMW, in EU/Denmark it's a very common way to "crash course" people on each other when you suddenly find yourself in a new environment with nobody you know (university, new work). Then again, I'd say EU drinking is a lot more mature than the US one. We usually get introduced to it a lot earlier in life, and have a gentler intro curve rather than going from zero-100 real quick, when entering college or the likes.

Definitely. Alcohol is a social grease. Facilitates having fun, kills off stress temporarily. All conductive to bonding, even if not strictly necessary.

I guess we have different definitions of bonding then, because that just sounds like regular drinking to me. In my opinion a bond is forged through some meaningful connection or meaningful shared experience. I just don't find knocking pints back to be meaningful experience. Its a bond that lasts until the pub closes. I say this as someone who drinks as well.

Alcohol does not create a meaningful bonding experience by itself (unless you're out tasting some very rare and special beverage). It matters what you're doing while drinking. Personally, I find hours-long conversations over beers to be quite good at building rapport with people.

This is my point, if the drinking doesn't matter so much as the "what you're doing" why does booze need to be involved at all?

"hours-long conversations over beers" sounds like getting wasted to me or at at very least tipsy.

> This is my point, if the drinking doesn't matter so much as the "what you're doing" why does booze need to be involved at all?

It doesn't. But it can be, because - besides the "social grease" benefits it confers, which I mentioned before - why not?

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