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Comment by squeed | Hacker News Reader

This is the link to the full email: https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/20...

I was there when it happened. It's funny now, but it goes to show that "radical inclusivity" has its own costs. Put another way, including everyone actually means excluding some. This wasn't initially obvious, though, in retrospect, it should have been.

I'd like to thank the Geek Feminism movement for really evolving the discussion around that. We all had a lot of growing up to do.

Noisebridge has, in the past half-decade, learned from its mistakes and begun a more structured program of welcoming and introduction. Also, we lock the door at night now (that helps a lot).

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Obviously I have no understanding what actually transpired, but I was reading through the thread, and it seemed like bad the sentiment was more around the behavior than the religious nature of the stuff (which definitely also faced some opposition, but less).

Sounds like this person just decided to set up shop without respecting other people's use of the same space, and with no efforts towards being non-disruptive. And then when people intervened and had conversations multiple times, they still refused to be respectful. So they got kicked out, and subsequently left an angry voicemail that misunderstands the constitution. The fact that this person already had two other temples they could use nearby made it seem even more like proselytizing, which just made it worse.

https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/20...

I think the reaction could have been quite different if the person had asked about using the space and fixed the space back to how it was afterwards, and had not proselytized. Doesn't seem like too much to ask for a free public space.

I'm really interested in hearing more about what Noisebridge has learned over the years of building a community. As I see issues like this popping up frequently around me, just with less characters who resemble the beginnings of a joke.

Do you any literature you can point me to?

Not Noisebridge: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13688719

>> "including everyone actually means excluding some"

Just to be clear, do you mean "everyone" could not fit in the space, by being all inclusive that some would self exclude, etc.?

Everyone includes those who would destroy whatever you're trying to do, to subvert it, etc. so if you want thing for "everybody" you have to keep out the terminally toxic.

More gray, more of slippery slope are those who are hostile or even just annoying. Like do you exclude the lifers cause the feminists will fight or vice versa. You might feel neo nazis are right out (I'd argue 1. You must protect the freedoms of all to protect freedom of any 2. It is far better to have people like that out in open than hiding away). But what about wwii reenacters or war gamers. People think they are nazis for wearing the uniform or playing with toy tanks.

The question of hostile/annoying people is easier in communities where "tolerance" is one of the foundational social mores: where there's an expectation that everyone does their best to not annoy others, but also an expectation that everyone does their best to not be annoyed by others.

In communities without this social more, it's very easy for things to degenerate into radical groups fighting to get on top in public-perception terms so they can demonize whatever group they oppose and get them pushed out of the community.

I think the point is that some people just have mutually exclusive desires, and it's not possible (or practical) to satisfy both parties.

"Mistakes" may be a strong word. I don't think anyone could do what Noisebridge does without some unexpected challenges. It's an ongoing experiment, and I am astonished that it continues to be a thriving community even while the faces of its core membership change over the years. For all their "mistakes," I think they got the important stuff right.

Thanks for sharing. The Noisebridge link is much better than the OP.

I'd like to hear more about this as well as a community I'm a part of has been dealing with some issues around inclusivity

I'm not being cynical, but it seems like Noisebridge has been relaunching itself for like the past 5 years.

The email is incredibly well written and worth reading regardless of your position on the matter :)

Thanks for posting it.

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