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Comment by nottorp | Hacker News Reader

Problem is, Apple doesn't have anything for power users or developers right now. I'm currently hackintoshing, but with every "dumb it down" decision (like remove the battery life time estimation), hardware mishap (LG monitors not working near wifi, come on) or new hardware announcement that still doesn't serve my demographic i wonder if i shouldn't just switch back to Linux.

I used to say that their laptops are fine, and it's only the desktop where i need to hackintosh, but ... touch typing hostile emoji keyboard?

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I'm on Linux now, and people that like design and attention to detail can't really be happy using this... I don't expect massive migration to Linux from OSX. People will go back to Windows and OSX in a few months.

For the record, I've been using Linux as my main OS for 10 years when I finally decided to switch to OS X about 4 years ago. I have no problem switching back if Apple stops offering me enough flexibility. After all, you don't need to recompile your kernel to install drivers any more :)

You don't need to deal with drivers period on MacOS. I use Linux every day as a server, and have tried a few times to use it as a desktop platform, but never last longer than a few hours. (I'm a graphics person)

My HP printer begs to differ. Wouldn't show up on my mac until I installed their garbage software. On my ubuntu desktop, it works right away without any fiddling. Graphics, on the other hand, are definitely pretty finicky, especially HiDPI

Can confirm. Ubuntu, supposedly the most user-friendly Linux desktop distro, can't even get it close to being right.

Assuming you mean the GUI side, as a full time Linux user: Unity is infuriating. I run MATE and recommend trying Cinnamon (Mint), Gnome3 (Fedora), KDE (Kubuntu), or https://elementary.io/ for strong hints of apple flavor.

Yeah hints, I've been waiting years for a well-polished frontend, still waiting. Though as you mentioned the likes of elementary.io and the like, they are getting closer, but feel it'll still be a few years away.

AFAIK the only major remaining issue is font rendering without Infinality. What else is elementary.io missing?

I'm honestly curious, what is it that you find infuriating with Unity? I hear this often, but never specific reasons. I'm perfectly OK with Unity, and I'm a tiling WM kinda guy (so it's far from ideal, but still perfectly usable). The few times I've tried to use Gnome 3, on the other hand, I just couldn't figure it out.

I'm not the one you asked the question to but in my case it's the top bar. I can make global menus go away but not move the top bar to the bottom. The sum of those issues are the reason I never considered buying a Mac since the very first one.

I also don't like the dock but at least that can be made to auto hide. I do like lenses and I wish I could have them in the Gnome 2 look alike DE I'm using on Gnome 3 right now (Ubuntu 16.04 with gnome-flashback and some customizations, included merging the top bar in the bottom one.)

I tried to use and love lenses, but it never really worked out for me.

* The Launcher, just the MacOS Dock, is a waste of pixels. I don't need to see a 128x128px Firefox icon all day. It can be hidden and/or reduced to 32x32px, but bad defaults.

* Hidden menus. Can be changed, but bad defaults.

* Top Bar.

* Left aligned window controls. It's not an option to change anymore.

Con: All the UX I don't like about MacOS. Pro: At least Edit->Cut works in the file manager. YMMV 100%.

Gnome3: Has a "launcher", but it's default hidden. I use meta/win key and type what I want.

Agreed on Launcher somewhat. I hide it, but put most frequent applications there and launch them via shortcuts (Super+[1-9]). Instead of menus I use the HUD, and in general I try to use most Unity features via shortcuts and find the defaults in that department sensible.

I agree, but honestly Windows 10 now has Ubuntu bash included. Windows is a much better choice for Mac users who want to migrate.

Ubuntu is missing Office 365, all Adobe Products and much more. Yes you can run it with Wine, but that's not that easy.

I always thought this on Windows-- the Linux subsystem is weak and I won't be happy with it until Windows is developed on a UNIX kernel, i.e., never. So then I switch to some distro with Gnome3 because it's cool and that's where the problems start.

HiDPI support has been garbage for at least 2 years. I'll get scaling and resolutions right for my XPS13 QHD, and then I'll plug in a 1080 monitor and it goes back to looking like crap. The sound goes out unless I cold boot twice. Then I need to use Wine to run Photoshop in a barely legible font size because hidpi scaling won't work. God help you if you want to manually configure your display manager, as you'll end up with an unusable display and hours of SO on your hands.

That's not to mention the ton of visual and "feel" issues behind using even Pantheon/eOS, which feels like a fork of OS 10.5.

I recently built my own hackintosh and am quite happy with it. I do all my work on the Mac with integrated graphics (don't need a GPU, which is great because the Nvidia web drivers are indeed terrible) and switch to Windows for games. Couldn't be more pleased.

> Apple doesn't have anything for power users or developers right now.

I'm a power user and a developer and I find the 2016 MBPs to be the best laptops around. My only misgiving was the hefty price. The only "dongle" I needed was a single USB/USB-C adapter but I really don't have to use it most of the time; everything I have — phone, tablet, portable hard disk — works wirelessly.

The battery time (I think you mistyped "life time") estimation was dumb, never accurate or consistent, and people don't mind the lack of it on billions of other mobile devices anyway.

The battery issues with the 2016 MBPs were found to be on the software side and have since then been resolved, and they have been reported to go for 18! hours on a single charge. Certainly lasts me a whole day and then some of non-continuous use.

Re: the LG shielding mishap, you're blaming Apple for a completely different company's product, okay.

> still doesn't serve my demographic

Which demographic and what do you require?

> touch typing hostile emoji keyboard?

What?

> Re: the LG shielding mishap, you're blaming Apple for a completely different company's product, okay.

It's a monitor Apple effectively blessed as their monitor replacement. They sold it. So... yeah. Yeah, I do blame them for their lack of due diligence.

Why is this their problem?

Because, how am I supposed to rely on Apple to meet my needs if they are perfectly happy dropping products a business depends on?

> Which demographic and what do you require?

Not the OP, but none of the half-dozen developers/tech-oriented people I know who have switched to the latest laptops prefer them over the older ones. I've heard nothing good about them besides being a bit lighter, but that was one person and it was more a "the only thing better is it's a bit lighter" before listing complaints.

The complaints range from the touch bar to performance being far worse than older models. Running side by side, it's noticeable just by watching things run.

> What?

Are you not aware of the touch bar?

> It's a monitor Apple effectively blessed as their monitor replacement. They sold it. So... yeah. Yeah, I do blame them for their lack of due diligence.

Apple don't make the LG Ultrafine Display. Apple offer many other third-party products through their stores, but it's the manufacturer's responsibility to support those.

> how am I supposed to rely on Apple to meet my needs if they are perfectly happy dropping products a business depends on?

Apple still make amazing 5120×2880, 10-bits-per-channel screens: The Retina iMacs. If your business depends on such screens, you'd get the iMacs, not the MacBooks, or get a MacBook with any of the many third-party 4K displays.

> none of the half-dozen developers/tech-oriented people I know who have switched to the latest laptops prefer them over the older ones.

Why?

> before listing complaints. The complaints range from the touch bar

Like? What complaints specifically?

> to performance being far worse than older models.

They have some of the fastest SSDs on the market [1], their batteries can go up to 18 hours [2], they have the fastest GPUs ever in a MacBook, and how many laptops do you know that have high-DPI Wide Color screens?

----

> Are you not aware of the touch bar?

I use it daily, and it's better than the archaic row of limited and cryptic FN keys that it replaces, especially once you've tweaked it a little. [3]

FN Keys:

• 12

• Have to remember what each number does in each app

• Different numbers remain "fixed" for different functions in different operating systems (e.g. F1 for Help, Alt+F4 for Quit.)

• Not customizable

• Cannot give at-a-glance status without taking up main screen space

----

Touch Bar:

• More than 12

• Not limited by physical space

• Context-sensitive and adaptive

• More types of controls than just buttons (e.g. sliders, color pickers)

• Customizable

• Can display at-a-glance status such as time, battery etc.

----

As for other companies that offer high-end laptops, take a look at people's experience with Razer for example. [4]

All of the over-a-dozen developers/tech-oriented people that -I- know prefer the 2016 MBPs to everything else. They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month. [5]

[1] https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/01/2016-macbook-pro-ssd/

[2] https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/13/macbook-pro-battery-issu...

[3] https://alexw.me/2017/01/what-if-you-could-customize-your-ne...

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785247

[5] http://fortune.com/2016/11/09/apple-macbook-pro-sales/

Another one that defends the laptops when the original article is about a Mac Pro replacement :)

> Can display at-a-glance status such as time, battery etc.

You look at the keyboard when you type? Not my demographic then, i type too much for that. It's probably fine for you.

> All of the over-a-dozen developers/tech-oriented people that -I- know prefer the 2016 MBPs to everything else. They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month.

You don't know any developers working on compiled software. And the mbpros outsell everything not because they don't annoy people, but because there's almost no alternative. Perhaps the Dell Developer Edition laptops, but Apple would have to piss me off more than they have so far for me to try a Dell instead.

And again, the article - and my OP - are from people who need a powerful desktop for work.

> You don't know any developers working on compiled software.

I do. I expect your next response will impose qualifiers on "developers" and "compiled software." :)

> my OP - are from people who need a powerful desktop for work.

Your OP said:

> Problem is, Apple doesn't have anything for power users or developers right now.

> I used to say that their laptops are fine

My experience is that their laptops are still more than fine enough for power users and developers.

> I do. I expect your next response will impose qualifiers on "developers" and "compiled software." > I used to say that their laptops are fine > My experience is that their laptops are still more than fine enough for power users and developers.

Well, [part 1] I don't use xcode, i touch type [part 2] and a lot of the stuff i work on involves looong builds and/or going through a few VMs. I also HATE fan noise and I work from home in a quiet room. Part 1 disqualifies the emoji keyboard, part 2 disqualifies anything with laptop-like internals, namely the laptops and the iMacs. I hope that's enough qualifiers :)

> i touch type ... Part 1 disqualifies the emoji keyboard

Why do you keep saying this? The Touch Bar replaces the FN keys, not the keyboard.

There are no emojis on the Touch Bar unless you specifically bring them up. You can modify the Touch Bar to only present you with the controls you need. [1]

> I also HATE fan noise and I work from home in a quiet room. ... disqualifies anything with laptop-like internals

The 2016 MBPs are some of the quietest laptops around [2]. Which computer do you use? Is it a desktop without any fans?

[1] https://www.boastr.net/bettertouchtool-touch-bar-customizati...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/5ffhe4/2016_mbp...

> Why do you keep saying this? The Touch Bar replaces the FN keys, not the keyboard.

I use those keys. Without looking down.

> Which computer do you use? Is it a desktop without any fans?

Let's say I build my systems according to the advice on silentpcreview.com. Apple laptops on full load may be quiet for a laptop, but they have nothing on a custom built desktop.

> I use those keys. Without looking down.

Unless you slide your finger across the keyboard to "count" which FN key is under your finger, you can still use FN keys on the Touch Bar, without looking down; they are in the same positions.

The Touch Bar is always within your peripheral vision when you're looking at the screen anyway [1] [2].

> Let's say I build my systems according to the advice on silentpcreview.com. Apple laptops on full load may be quiet for a laptop, but they have nothing on a custom built desktop.

Well if you're willing to record/measure the noise of your current machine under your usual workload, I could try running the same tasks on my 15" 2016 MBP to compare.

Mind you though, a desktop chassis is usually far away from you, unlike any laptop right under your hands, unless you use it with an external keyboard. So objective noise vs. perceived noise will be different, and have to be compensated for.

[1] http://i.imgur.com/En02SKA.jpg

[2] http://i.imgur.com/DIN2fCE.jpg

> Unless you slide your finger across the keyboard to "count" which FN key is under your finger, you can still use FN keys on the Touch Bar, without looking down; they are in the same positions.

If that was true, we could just use an iPad instead of a physical keyboard. But there's a reason people don't like typing on chiclet keyboards or glass, and some developers even go to great lengths of geekery to build custom mechanical keyboards with different types of switches.

Typing on glass just doesn't give you the same feedback you get from physical keys.

I'm not saying the Touch Bar is not an improvement for many people. Many people (even some developers or professionals) rarely use the F-keys. But there is a certain demographic which deeply cares about the keyboard, and there's no denying parts of this demographic overlapped with that of MBP users.

What do developers use the f keys for? I never use them while editing code. I guess maybe shortcuts in some IDEs? But you don't press those anywhere near as often as regular keys, and they're still there on the touch bar when you need them.

> they are in the same positions.

This is simply not true.

Which apps do you use that make such heavy use of the function keys that makes any such difference significant? I'm not sure I'm aware of anything I use on a daily basis that uses the function keys. I use them so rarely, I usually forget that I need to press the fn key first to actually use them, and then I always have to hunt for the fn key; its placement by the home/end keys on my keyboard isn't exactly conducive to frequent use.

Debugging keyboard shortcuts is the first thing that comes to mind. Esc is also used regularly.

I always bind my keyboard to use the fn# keys without pressing "fn", usually in the BIOS, so I only press "fn" for the other special features (brightness, media, etc., that laptop makers map arbitrarily to the fn# keys)

> My experience is that their laptops are still more than fine enough for power users and developers.

And My experience is that their laptops are not more than fine enough for power users and developers.

Now, why can't we be both right? That your needs are clearly met by the laptop, but others aren't? Are you somehow impacted if people who used to like the products put out are now disappointed by them? That people who were looking to buy new machines spent their money else where and had better results?

Do you feel that if these people are right, that somehow this negates your choice and needs? Why are you working so hard to dictate that their needs are unimportant and that your needs are superior?

Because it is baffling.

None of the complainers seem to be able to say exactly WHY the new MacBooks are bad.

• They complain about performance when they're the fastest MacBooks ever, surpassing many competitors and with a very good battery charge-to-perforamce ratio, not to mention the best display ever on a MacBook.

• They complain about needing "5 dongles" when you need at most 1 USB/USB-C adapter + sometimes a multiport hub or dock, for almost any use case.

• That one guy keeps calling it an emoji keyboard, when there aren't any emoji on the keyboard.

• They complain of not being able to touch-type when the physical keyboard is still there.

• They complain about noise when these are the quietest MacBook Pros ever, and without willing to show what they're comparing it with.

• They say Apple is losing favor with customers when the new MacBooks have outsold everything and Apple has continued to top rankings and stock prices.

So yeah. I have the thing in my hands, and I use it daily, and there really hasn't been a better MacBook before. I DO concede that they may be priced a bit too steeply.

Meanwhile I only see complaints from people who have clearly never even used the things! It's pretty obvious with their "emoji keyboard" and "dongles everywhere" hyperbole, like going back to the old "Micro$oft" and "Windoze" days.

So of course I have to wonder and ask: By WHAT metric are they bad? I can only chalk it down to a concentrated anti-PR effort, or some desperate brand envy (e.g. adamantly putting the blame for LG's monitors — that have now been fixed, by the way — on Apple.)

> Apple don't make the LG Ultrafine Display.

But they did make monitors. And Routers. And other things that people bought into. Because Apple "just works." But now it doesn't.

> Apple still make amazing 5120×2880, 10-bits-per-channel screens: The Retina iMacs. If your business depends on such screens, you'd get the iMacs

iMacs are not replacements for MBP + Apple's monitors.

> Why?

Because the previous models have features and capabilities that the new ones do not that they prefer.

> Like? What complaints specifically?

For example, the touch bar button activating not when someone wants the touch buttons to activate. Specifically the latest case, I had a friend joke about how he's changed the background color of his terminal so many time since moving to the latest MBP. That's just one example.

> They have some of the...

shrug I know what I see. Sorry, but running scripts side by side with an older MBP compared to the latest MBP, the older one won hands down.

> I use it daily

And you weren't clued into the GPs remark about the touch screen? You honestly couldn't figure it out?

> They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month.

And just because others like something, that means it's good for me?

> For example, the touch bar button activating not when someone wants the touch buttons to activate. Specifically the latest case, I had a friend joke about how he's changed the background color of his terminal so many time since moving to the latest MBP. That's just one example.

I would just like to say that that's BS.

You have to be very deliberate to change the Terminal window color: It takes a tap on a specific button to bring up the color picker, then you have to lift your finger to the slider and move it, or keep your finger held on the Touch Bar for a second then slide it around without lifting it to choose from a palette.

It's not something that can be done accidentally, as it takes multiple specific actions in a row.

If you still keep fumbling it "so many times" then you can always customize the Touch Bar and just remove the offending buttons.

> Yeah, I do blame them for their lack of due diligence.

While simultaneously absolving yourself of having to do any research.

> Because, how am I supposed to rely on Apple to meet my needs

I often see people saying Apple owes it to its customers to make x, y, or z product, as if Apple's role in the ecosystem needs to be expanded further. Apple is a company, not a nanny, they don't owe you anything, and I feel we should keep their scope limited rather than expanded.

First, you're defending the laptop, not the desktops. The laptops are still almost okay. Now for some point answers...

> The battery time (I think you mistyped "life time") estimation was dumb, never accurate or consistent, and people don't mind the lack of it on billions of other mobile devices anyway.

It was accurate as long as you kept doing the same task. For example, I knew how much longer a gaming session or a long build could last on battery. But this is laptop stuff and the original article and my whining is about desktops.

> Re: the LG shielding mishap, you're blaming Apple for a completely different company's product, okay.

A completely different company's product that is the only solution that makes use of the emoji mbpro's features, is sold and promoted a lot by Apple, and thus endorsed by them on their web site.

> Which demographic and what do you require?

Independent dev working from home. Running two VMs simultaneously at times, and also using the same computer for entertainment, namely gaming. Working on compiled software, not scp-ing stuff to a server for web development, so I actually need CPU power.

I could almost use the trash can, except they want me to pay for two slow video cards that are for some reason labeled "pro". Put in it a nvidia 1050+ and I'll buy it, although I'll be a bit space challenged. Some source trees take a lot of space. I'll even pay extra for the Xeon and ECC ram i don't really need, but give me a video card i can game on.

Before you ask, no, the iMac is not a dev's computer. It thermally throttles if you actually use the CPU, and makes laptop-like noise when compiling. No thank you. I've heard even the trash can throttles, and i blame the "pro" video cards.

> touch typing hostile emoji keyboard?

What you read exactly. Please explain how you touch type on the touch screen that replaced the F keys and how it is useful to me when I, like anyone who works a lot with the keyboard, have memorized every shortcut I use. It's mostly good for emoji in instant messaging, and I don't use that either.

> First, you're defending the laptop, not the desktops. The laptops are still almost okay.

"Problem is, Apple doesn't have anything for power users or developers right now."

You complained about everything from Apple across the board, including blaming them for some other company. [1]

> Independent dev working from home.

Same here.

> Running two VMs simultaneously at times, and also using the same computer for entertainment, namely gaming.

Ditto, but just one VM; Windows, for some games. Everything I want to play, even very recent games like Paragon [2], runs just fine on the 15" 2016 MBP, in Boot Camp if not inside macOS.

> so I actually need CPU power.

Haven't experienced any throttling yet, myself.

> What you read exactly. Please explain how you touch type on the touch screen that replaced the F keys and how it is useful to me when I, like anyone who works a lot with the keyboard, have memorized every shortcut I use.

See [3]. The Touch Bar is always in your vision and I don't have to take my fingers off the keyboard to use it, as opposed to moving my hand to the mouse/trackpad to perform functions that I can now do from the Touch Bar.

"Looking" at it is no different than moving your eyeballs a nanometer to look at a menu bar or any other element on the screen.

Even if looking at something was such an arduous action, having to continuously refer to a secondary resource (be it your memory, in-app help, keybind settings, or online) to know what each F-number does with each modifier in each context of each app, is considerably more backwards.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13902459

[2] https://www.epicgames.com/paragon

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13902923

Don't think of the touchbar as a keyboard-shortcut bar at all; the F-keys have basically been "killed", not changed. They're gone like FireWire. The new thing that is there displaced them, rather than being an upgrade to them; it just emulates them as a sop for the few people who might need them, while app developers take the hint and remove F-key bindings from their apps.

The touchbar is really there to be a little touchable display, like an iPad, or the bottom screen of a Nintendo DS. It's for virtual knobs, rather than virtual keys: it makes perfect sense once you use it to scrub or drag-select in iMovie or Final Cut Pro. It's basically a shrunk-down embedded platform for those "live controller" iPad apps (DJay Pro; that thing Bret Victor built in the dead fish video; etc.) to run on.

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