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Comment by Kurtz79 | Hacker News Reader

I'm talking about Europe (where college is in general more affordable and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school), but if you are looking for employment as a professional at an established company, with no previous experience, not having a degree will definitely make it harder:

- To get an interview in the first place.

- To get a decent starting salary.

- To get into management positions as you progress.

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I'm very early in the process of looking for a job in Europe, and lots of things do indeed seem to be different. Here are some things I've been asked to provide prior to an interview (that none of my US-based employers have requested) :

    * Full life-long gapless CV 
    * marital status
    * family status
    * hobbies
    * original college transcript
    * multiple references
    * picture

To your point, there definitely seems to be more stigma against those without college education. I once accidentally sent a resume without my college info, and was asked matter-of-factly if I was "uneducated". In the US, most employers don't even seem to care about my schooling anymore since I have 5+ years of professional experience.

Several of those things are inadvisible / effectively illegal for US employers to ask due to anti discrimination laws.

It probably varies (country by country inside Europe, and even company by company), but being asked about marital, family status, hobbies and picture seems unusual to me.

Gapless CV, degree transcript and references are more common.

At en established company — most definitely. However, those are not everything there is on the job market.

I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities). I found that crazy, I guess I'll stick to working at small companies for as long as they'll employ me.

I've worked for several large companies in the US. I've never needed to provide college transcripts.

Further, after significant involvement in the interview and hiring process at my last position (a very large technology company), it's my belief that this would be counter-productive to most firms. Finding candidates that have the skillsets necessary, fit the culture, and perform well in the interviews is difficult enough.

Counterpoint: when I was applying at Google they did ask for a full copy of my college transcript. Not sure how much weight it was given in the hiring decision, but it seemed important to the recruiter.

They only do this for recent (past 2 years) grads, who have no work experience yet.

Interesting. Were you a recent grad? Were you based in the US?

I was about 2 years out of school, and yes, in the US.

My company was like they until they caught a guy lying about his degrees.

My company verified my degrees. I know they did because I had graduated from a master's program around the same time I sent in the paperwork to HR, and they needed me to physically bring in my diploma as proof of graduation (the university records hadn't been updated in all systems yet).

I didn't need transcripts though. You don't need a transcript to verify that someone obtained a degree.

In 20 years, I've never even been asked about my non-existent degree. Not even one time. I've mostly worked at 'big 5' companies, and their equivalents in the game industry.

This is my experience as well. Dimensions of character and past work are better indicators of good candidates. Degrees get little attention outside of college hiring.

If he was doing the job and doing it well, I don't see why it's a big deal. Universities used to be where you had to go to learn something new, but with the internet, anyone can learn anything they choose to.

It does matter for some non-IT positions (economics, law) and big companies tend to create general rules (e.g. everyone has to prove he has degree he claims to have).

Plus, while it does not matter whether you have degree for programming, it does matter whether you lie about it.

It's more likely that an employer in Europe, or Asia will ask for this. If you were coming to the US on an H1B visa, you'll have to file paperwork as part of the credential evaluation. For me, this involved a third-party reviewing that my degree was equivalent to that from a US university.

Your comment on "fit the culture" can be considered somewhat offensive, and an indicator to candidates that they may want to consider other opportunities.

That's a normal phrase in America. And yeah it's a generic term that can encompass nearly anything.

A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.

>A rather unfortunate one, at that, as it legitimizes all sorts of bias. At best, it's an intellectually lazy way to conceptualize a whole bundle of soft skills.

I think you're a ways off here. Culture is character (and not a "bundle of soft skills"). Some companies want candidates that value and empathize with customers. Others may want candidates that demonstrate integrity and ability to collaborate with others. Often, these values are codified as principals to work and measure by. When a candidate fails to demonstrate valued traits, or provides examples that are contrary to those values, that is "not a culture fit".

I think you and I largely agree. My point is that companies can avoid intellectual laziness by doing exactly what you just did: being clear about what specific skills and behaviors they value.

Because "culture", in vernacular, does not mean what you propose. Would you agree that it broadly consists ofthe shared history and norms that bind a group together socially? That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it does implicitly defining other people as outsiders. When you add "fit", it can become exclusionary. That's what I mean by the term legitimizing bias.

> I think the same way, as I'm my mid-30s and I've always only worked for small(ish) companies as a programmer ever since I dropped out of college, but I had a cultural shock recently, as a close friend of mine had to provide a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades when he recently got hired as a software architect by a medium-to-large software company (500+ devs based in several Eastern European cities).

Just a guess but I'd say they've been burned in the past by people lying about their transcripts (class/grade history) and as a result they ask for it going forward. Either that or overzealous HR trying creating more work and process.

I've never heard of a company in the USA asking for a transcript. I'm not aware of anyone asking for a copy of a diploma either. Though presumably if you lie about it on your employment application and they subsequently find out about it it'd be grounds for termination with cause.

> a paper-record (don't know the exact English term) with all his college grades

It's usually called a 'transcript' (in British English at least)

In American, too.

(That would be a hell of a strange thing for a potential employer to ask for here, too.)

AFAIK, it's normal for them to ask for official transcripts if you put "PhD" on your transcripts. (I hope they ask for proof of a MD, too...)

But yeah, at the same employer, they apparently don't ask for proof of a master's degree (or BS).

That's not necessarily because they require it, but simply a hr policy because he put them on his CV.

Some people lie about qualifications.

I agree you probably need a degree but it doesn't have to be a college degree. There are many European countries where trade/vocational training is working well and most people don't go to college.

True, but that is industry- and role-specific.

What makes you a professional if you have no experience and no degree?

Getting paid to do something...

There are plenty of examples of people succeeding on a "professional" level with no degree in their field of work, or no degree at all. Especially in CS/IT.

"Being a professional" is about your ability and how you go about doing your job.

You forgot to address the lack of experience.

I think being able to do the job at a "professional" level implies you have experience in the subject matter. Now, that experience may not be formal... but formal experience isn't the end-all-be-all anyway.

There are plenty of CS masters/PHD holders who write horrifically unprofessional code.

>> ...and there is no stigma associated to getting your degree from a public school

What countries have this problem?

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