Hacker News Reader

Comment by orthecreedence | Hacker News Reader

Well maybe you'd like the first amendment to be removed? Just because something has no cultural value doesn't stop someone, in this country, from having the right to say it. That's the beauty of our country. We can say great things, boring things, vile things, agreeable things, dissenting things and it's all protected. You remove protection for one, and you risk losing all of it.

I agree it's within Twitter's rights to censor the data flowing through their own platform, it's fairly impossible to argue otherwise. That said, I think speech should absolutely be protected, even for racist dickheads. Otherwise, who decides what's "right" and what's "wrong?" Some government committee? A handful of corporations? What happens when your opinions are suddenly unpopular? Whoops, should have defended (or at the very least accepted) the idea of free speech for all people and ideas.

View on HN

I don't see that defending the right to free/unpopular/hate speech is the same as providing a platform for it.

A grocery store owner might not want anyone to stand in their store screaming epithets about black people, or ranting about Trump, or Clinton, or whatever. That doesn't mean the store owner believes these things should be blocked, just that they should be done somewhere else.

Incidentally, California state law allows people to collect signatures and get their message out (as long as they don't disturb the peace) in any public place, and includes grocery stores in "public place."

I remember seeing people collecting signatures at the mall when I was a teenager. The mall always posted a professionally printed sign saying, essentially, "these people have a right to do this, but we don't agree with them and we ask you to ignore them."

> Just because something has no cultural value doesn't stop someone, int he country, from having the right to say it.

Nobody is denying them that right. You don't have a right to a twitter account. If someone won't allow you to post on their website, you're free to post it on your own website. That's free speech.

It says something about the platforms integrity if it only silence one side of the equation even though it might be its right to do so.

> It says something about the platforms integrity

And? I don't have a stake in the integrity of twitter or any other private business. If I don't like the product, I don't use it, same as any other business. Frankly, my default assumption regarding any business is that its integrity only goes as far as it affects the bottom line, and that has proven to be true with pretty much every business I've encountered. None of this has anything to do with free speech.

Your right of free speech ends at the point where it reduces my safety. We do not have unlimited rights of speech, and for good reason. To paraphrase Justice robert Jackson, the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

Speech != action.

"Well maybe you'd like the first amendment to be removed?"

See, this is what I'm talking about. I said I see no moral value in racists harassing people. And make no mistake, the topic we were discussing is exactly that. Racists harassing someone on a private company's platform. And now you're trying to make it like I want the 1st Amendment repealed. Despite the fact that Twitter is not bound by the 1st Amendment, nor have I called for anyone to be jailed.

"Just because something has no cultural value doesn't stop someone, in this country, from having the right to say it."

No, but that thing being harassment, which the event in question absolutely was, does stop you from having a right to say it.

"We can say great things, boring things, vile things, agreeable things, dissenting things and it's all protected. You remove protection for one, and you risk losing all of it."

I do not agree in the slightest. I'm pretty sure Twitter can not allow hate speech and harassment on their private platform, and free speech would be absolutely fine. There would be no chilling effect whatsoever.

"That said, I think speech should absolutely be protected, even for racist dickheads."

And I believe they have absolutely no right to harass another user, which is what we're talking about.

"Otherwise, who decides what's "right" and what's "wrong?""

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that advocating for the genocide of an entire people falls very squarely within the "wrong" category, with absolutely no risk of any slippery slope.

"What happens when your opinions are suddenly unpopular?"

I don't call for the genocide of an entire people, and I don't make racist remarks. I'll be fine.

"Whoops, should have defended (or at the very least accepted) the idea of free speech for all people and ideas."

Yeah, no. I'm still never going to defend or accept the idea that harassment should be tolerated.

Great points, and as short as your comment was, I somehow missed the distinction between right to free speech and right to harass people. I do think that line is, also, a bit of a gray area.

I also have to admit, I don't know exactly what happened with Yiannopolis' account (seemingly removed for violating TOS, although the alt-right seems to cry "censorship!!").

I think after reading your response, while I share your views on a lot of things, I still think things like racial cleansing should be protected speech, slippery slope or not. I think the people who subscribe to these ideas are vile people, but I do think they have the right to express their ideas, whether or not I want to hear it.

Everyone agrees they have a right to say it. They can buy a domain name and a hosting account and go just a crazy as their racist little selves can be.

Both the alt-right Milo crowd and I agree on that. I also think that Twitter has the legal and moral right to say whatever they want to publish on their own privately owned site. However, the people who most cry about the "censorship" of Milo disagree here. They grudgingly admit the legal right exists, but believe there is no moral right to control what I publish. By giving you an account, they hold that that right has been taken away, and that ethically, you can prevent me from exercising my right to speak as I want on my own site. How am I the restrictive one here?

The topic is not moral value. The topic is freedom as an individual to say and think what I wish within the eyes of the law. When a special interest of people decide what is right and wrong in the eyes of the law, it becomes well... the law. If the law is "you may not verbally harass someone" then what is the interpretation of what verbal harassment is? What is sufficient harm to a victim that would justify legal action? What is the legal action for verbally harassing someone (not in a workplace but in a public setting).

Some sad news for the social justice crowd... these types of internet harassment problems are simply not that important to enough people, and do not cause enough harm for laws like this to be enacted or even seriously considered on a federal or state level. Corporations like twitter can do as they wish, and will be scrutinized for censorship by all Americans who value their first amendment right.

Who...surprise...are the majority! The united states has made its military so strong and has armed itself to incredible levels of overkill just to protect these rights from foreign powers who disagree. That's not just coincidence. The people who founded this country, as well as the ones who now live here clearly want and value those rights and freedoms. So much so, they are willing to die in massive numbers for them. That's almost the opposite of genocide.

>What is the legal action for verbally harassing someone

There is no 'legal' action. There is Twitter's right as a private entity to enforce its property rights. I can't tell what's causing this irrationality and whataboutism.

Good grief, what a bunch of self-serving piffle.

Good grief, you've been dropping insulting comments on an internet forum for almost 8 years.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com